Bad Taste From Fermenter

[petesbrew]

Really annoyed here.
The last 3 brews I've made have had a really bad flavour over the top. The closest I can describe it is a weird soapy flavour.
Someone who tried the beer suggested old yeast, and I'm willing to take that into account, as due to failed starters, i've fallen back on the old kit yeasts I have stored in the fridge.

Mainly I'm going to blame my cleaning methods. In the past I've used bleach, and have had success with it. Just last year I tried some homebrand nappisan, and that's where the trouble has started.
I'm now back to good old bleach (although I bought some Iodophor recently), but the latest brew (a cheap half batch) still has the flavour, it's reduced somewhat, but it's still there.

Does anyone have any hints on getting those smells & flavours out?
I have to kick this thing before I waste anymore time & money on good brews again.
By the way, the fermenter is now 3 years old, do they have a shelf life as such?
Cheers
Pete

 

[b_thomas]

Food grade plastic should last you a fair while, but depending on where you are storing it and under what conditions, sunlight, temperature etc can have an adverse affect. I'd say it's more likely your sanitation methods, mind you I'm only onto my second brew myself but from having plenty of experience with needing to keep things sanitised from other areas of the house or work, I'd recommend the following:

Cleaning everything in scalding hot water (wear gloves! or use the dishwasher) if you are using detergent make sure it's fragrance free - which is pretty much nothing these days so stick with just really hot water and a scrubbing brush
Then add a solution of PSR - Pink Sanitary Rinse (I call it that because I've yet to read the label, but it's odourless!). I sit all of my brew tools in my fermenter and cover them up in a solution of this whilst im not using them
Finally on a brewing day, I fill up a spray bottle with a solution of phosphoric acid and water (read the label and don't get it in your eyes it's uncomfortable)

If worse comes to worst then replace your fermenter, it could very well be that something has reacted with the plastic

 

[Darren]

Hey Pete,

Napisan is a cleaner not a sanitiser.

cheers

Darren

 

[mfdes]

Soapy can come from esters as well.
Still, I'd not blame old yeast, unless you can see obvious problems starting off the fermentation. If the flavour is present in the fermenter, something is happening pretty fast. Most infections, though not all, occur later on.
What temperature are you fermenting at?
Do you do a full-volume boil?
What type of water do you use?
Kit, extracts or all-grain?
Do you rinse everything after sanitising? If so what with?

I use home-brand nappy soaker for cleaning everything (as said above, it is NOT a sanitiser), then peroxyacetic acid for sanitising. Make sure you rinse everything with plenty of hot water after soaking in nappisan, and before sanitising.

MFS

 

[Guest Lurker]

I find people use "soapy" to describe an incredibly wide range of flavours. Best thing you can do is get to a club or brew gathering and have a bunch of people taste it and identify the actual off flavours, which will point you to the problem the fastest.

 

[petesbrew]

Soapy can come from esters as well.
Still, I'd not blame old yeast, unless you can see obvious problems starting off the fermentation. If the flavour is present in the fermenter, something is happening pretty fast. Most infections, though not all, occur later on.
What temperature are you fermenting at?
Do you do a full-volume boil?
What type of water do you use?
Kit, extracts or all-grain?
Do you rinse everything after sanitising? If so what with?

I use home-brand nappy soaker for cleaning everything (as said above, it is NOT a sanitiser), then peroxyacetic acid for sanitising. Make sure you rinse everything with plenty of hot water after soaking in nappisan, and before sanitising.

MFS

Cheers for the replies. Feel like a fool asking, but i'd rather embarress myself than have anymore dodgy beers.
Answer to the MFS's questiions
1. Temp = about 24-25c, due to summer temps at the moment. I'm trying my hardest to keep them down, and can get them down to 20 with lots of icebricks
2. Recently did a half volume boil (partial), but the 2nd & 3rd were k&k's when I discovered that flavour. Just dump and pitch.
3. Tap water, boiled water, hot water from the HWS.
4. rinse everything heaps of times with both hot and cold water.

I thought nappysan was a sanitiser. Thanks for correcting me. As I said, I've been using bleach for ages, and have had no probs, apart from dodgy recipes! B)

Also, what's the correct procedure for using Iodophor? Do you seriously just mix it up, spray/swirl it on, let it drip dry, then pour your wort in and brew?

 

[Canumbler]

If you already have bleach and have had success in the past I'd go back to it as a sanitiser.

I use the 1 part bleach mixed well with 640 parts water then 1 part vinegar mixed in as a no-rinse sanitiser, works for me.

 

[PostModern]

I'd say there is a good chance you're getting the taste from scents in the Napisan. The best ones to use are the no-name brands, the ones that contain 346g/Kg of sodium percarbonate. Everything else has enzymes and fragrances. As said above, after using this stuff you need to rinse the hell out of it to remove all traces. It is used to remove all the organic matter left after fermentation. Follow up with a sanitiser.

Iodophor is easy to use. As you say, mix it up to working solution, spray or splash onto every part of your gear then let drip dry. I usually sanitise the laundry tub and let it drip upside down in there.

b_thomas, PSR is not odourless. It is a chlorine based cleaner. Although it doesn't stink as much as bleach, it smells. Dry and avoid inhaling it.

 

[geoffi]

If you already have bleach and have had success in the past I'd go back to it as a sanitiser.

I use the 1 part bleach mixed well with 640 parts water then 1 part vinegar mixed in as a no-rinse sanitiser, works for me.

I use this as an after-use sanitiser for all my gear. Makes it sparkly for next time, when it just gets a quick swish of iodophor before going into action.

Vinegar in the mix is said to make bleach vastly more effective. One thing though: avoid mixing bleach and vinegar directly. Dilute first to avoid deadly fumes.

 

[Hutch]

avoid mixing bleach and vinegar directly. Dilute first to avoid deadly fumes.

... I once made this mistake with phosphoric acid and bleach. Anyone ever seen or breathed green Chlorine gas?
Easy to get complacent using these strong chemicals all the time in brewing, forgetting about the underlieing chemistry.
Lesson learned

 

[mfdes]

Also a possibility: water that's not been preboiled and hot fermentation can cause soapy-like flavours from infection or rampant ester production. Seeing how the weather is warming up and your previous, OK brews may have been fermented in cooler weather, this could be a cause.

18-20 degrees is optimal for most ale yeasts.

MFS

 

[petesbrew]

Cheers, guys for all the responses. I actually went to grab the vinegar last friday night, but it had some weird cloudy crap in it. Hmmm must've been there for a while.
For the moment I'll continue doing cheap brews, using these hints, until I get it right again.
Thanks again,
Pete
p.s. yeah, damn summer temps. I'll have to convince SWMBO we need a bigger fridge, so I can delegate the old one to the brauhaus.

 

[mfdes]

p.s. yeah, damn summer temps. I'll have to convince SWMBO we need a bigger fridge, so I can delegate the old one to the brauhaus.

Fridge shelves often "accidentally" break... and you don't need no stinky shelves for brewing anyway

MFS

 

[petesbrew]

Fridge shelves often "accidentally" break... and you don't need no stinky shelves for brewing anyway

MFS

In fact the outlaws fridge door handle is starting to really come loose and making cracking noises. It's a nice big size too!
Might have to be a bit more forceful opening the "future brewfridge".

 

[b_thomas]

b_thomas, PSR is not odourless. It is a chlorine based cleaner. Although it doesn't stink as much as bleach, it smells. Dry and avoid inhaling it.

urgh... that probably means I'm not mixing enough of it into solution, mind you I have a *terrible* sense of smell. I might take a look at using another product once this bag is emptied.

 

[blackbock]

Cheers, guys for all the responses. I actually went to grab the vinegar last friday night, but it had some weird cloudy crap in it. Hmmm must've been there for a while.

Petesbrew, just make sure it's white Vinegar, and not malt vinegar.

 

[petesbrew]

Petesbrew, just make sure it's white Vinegar, and not malt vinegar.

Cheers for that, Blackbock.

 

[mje1980]

When im done with my fermentor ( must be close to 5 years old ) i use boiling water to clean it, then, when its done, i sprinkle in a tea spoon of sodium met, dry. I can leave it for weeks, and when i open it up, the fumes are still quite strong, and nothing seems to want to grow in there. When i want to use it, i just rinse out with boiling water, then use the iodophor while the wort is boiling. Never had any probs doing this, i really think sanitation while you're not using your fermentor is just as important as just before you use it.

Cheers and good luck.

 

[petesbrew]

Well, after 3 years I've finally done it. I've tipped out a full 23 litres of stout.
Tasted it this morning and the flavour was frickin' gross. Carefully carried the full fermenter through to the laundry tub, emptied it and it's now sitting out the back with a bleach/vinegar & water solution.

Oh well, shit happens (and sometimes we bottle it!)

 

[beernography]

Does your fermenter stink when it's empty/dry?