Auberins Pid Settings

[Crusty]

Ok,
Worked it out, with quite a bit of help, thanks guys.
I was a bit ambitious with actual ramp times & failed to understand that if ramping from 66.0 to 78.0, 12deg ramp, 1deg per minute was probably more like it. I set my stop watch when the PV hit 78.0 but didn't notice the SV had already reached that temperature a few minutes ago & the countdown was already in motion. :unsure:
*******

Cheers

 

[matho]

glad to hear you got it work crusty.

after seeing all this I'm glad I made my own controller, all I have to do is put in the step temp and how long I want it to hold at that temp and it starts counting down when it gets to the temp, much easier

cheers

 

[TSMill]

Ok,
Worked it out, with quite a bit of help, thanks guys.
I was a bit ambitious with actual ramp times & failed to understand that if ramping from 66.0 to 78.0, 12deg ramp, 1deg per minute was probably more like it. I set my stop watch when the PV hit 78.0 but didn't notice the SV had already reached that temperature a few minutes ago & the countdown was already in motion. :unsure:
*******

Cheers

You can set the high/low deviation alarms to hold starting the next step until within a certain temperature range. Default for each is 9999, and doesn't seem to cycle back to 0, so have fun adjusting that one!

 

[cdbrown]

Ok,
Worked it out, with quite a bit of help, thanks guys.
I was a bit ambitious with actual ramp times & failed to understand that if ramping from 66.0 to 78.0, 12deg ramp, 1deg per minute was probably more like it. I set my stop watch when the PV hit 78.0 but didn't notice the SV had already reached that temperature a few minutes ago & the countdown was already in motion. :unsure:
*******

Cheers

From the manual it says

"Unless the deviation alarms are set to a narrow range, the ramping time decides when the program is going to the next step. Once the ramping time is finished the current step, the controller will execute the next step regardless if the temperature reaches the target temperature. Therefore, the ramp speed should be always slower than the maximum speed that the oven can offer at the full power. In other words, the ramping time should be longer than the minimum time needed for oven to jump from C03 to C04 at full power. If the ramping time is shorter than that, the time programmed for the next step will not be fulfilled."

Remember that when adding grains in the first few batches to run the auto-tune as the rig will react differently to just water. Most likely have a slower flow through the RIMS (so might overshoot with liquid in RIMS longer) due to not wanting to compact the grain bed.

 

[Crusty]

glad to hear you got it work crusty.

after seeing all this I'm glad I made my own controller, all I have to do is put in the step temp and how long I want it to hold at that temp and it starts counting down when it gets to the temp, much easier

cheers

I wish I had half your brains matho.
The Braumeister I believe has that same capability as your one & I assumed the auberins PID's were the same.
A bit more fiddling & I should be good to go.

You can set the high/low deviation alarms to hold starting the next step until within a certain temperature range. Default for each is 9999, and doesn't seem to cycle back to 0, so have fun adjusting that one!

I ain't goin there.

From the manual it says

"Unless the deviation alarms are set to a narrow range, the ramping time decides when the program is going to the next step. Once the ramping time is finished the current step, the controller will execute the next step regardless if the temperature reaches the target temperature. Therefore, the ramp speed should be always slower than the maximum speed that the oven can offer at the full power. In other words, the ramping time should be longer than the minimum time needed for oven to jump from C03 to C04 at full power. If the ramping time is shorter than that, the time programmed for the next step will not be fulfilled."

Remember that when adding grains in the first few batches to run the auto-tune as the rig will react differently to just water. Most likely have a slower flow through the RIMS (so might overshoot with liquid in RIMS longer) due to not wanting to compact the grain bed.

I will do a dummy run before the actual brew day as I have some pretty old grain sitting around. I will crack 5 or 6kg & pretend it's the real deal.
Do you run an autotune whilst ramping towards 66deg or wait till it's at that temp?
The only thing I am stuck on now is how to stop losing the ramping time coming off my actual set mash time. On brewday, I will be heating water up & should just about nail the 66deg sacc rest on the head but for my water tests, I am starting at ambient, say 28deg & ramping up to 66deg. I set a 60min sacc rest @66deg but if taking 15mins to get to 66, that's actually coming off my set time & I am only really sacc resting for 45mins. Is there a way around that?

 

[cdbrown]

I think I did my autotune when it was at temp - it basically turns the element on and off at various times to determine the response. I have run it a few times initially across a few brews. I might run it again as I'm now restricting the flow when it's at rest temps.

From the manual
"users should use the “safety start” function to ensure that the temperature and time during ramping and soaking are kept within a reasonable range required by the process. This is done by setting the deviation alarm close to the SV. At the beginning of a step, the timer will not start until PV is larger than SV-Hy-2+Hy and smaller thanSV+Hy-1-Hy. e. g. Set Hy-1=30, Hy-2=20, Hy=5 and SV=100. At the beginning of the step, if the temperature is below 85 (SV-Hy-2+Hy=85) degrees, or above 125 (SV+Hy-1-Hy=125) degrees, the controller will stop the timer to wait until the temperature is above than 85 degrees or below than 125 degrees before continuing. Please note that the Hy value should be smaller than both Hy-1 and Hy-2. Otherwise the controller will not start the next steps."

So it's all controlled by the Hy-1 (high alarm), Hy-2 (low alarm) and Hy (hysterisis band). So to prevent the timer from starting till 66 (PV) is reached
SV=66, Hy-1=2, Hy-2=2, Hy=1

timer will start once measured temp is above than 66-2+1= 65 (increase the Hy-1 and Hy-2 for a less tight control). For me I start the program and then press the down arrow for a few seconds which puts the program into hold mold. edit - I do not know whether these settings work or not as I haven't adjusted them on my system

Another way to do it is to have the
C1:66, t1:0
C2:66, t2:60
C3:66, t3:12
C4:78, t4:10
C5:78, t5:0
That will automatically bring the temp to 66 and hold until you manually press the down arrow for 2 seconds to move to the next step.

 

[Crusty]

I think I did my autotune when it was at temp - it basically turns the element on and off at various times to determine the response. I have run it a few times initially across a few brews. I might run it again as I'm now restricting the flow when it's at rest temps.

From the manual
"users should use the safety start function to ensure that the temperature and time during ramping and soaking are kept within a reasonable range required by the process. This is done by setting the deviation alarm close to the SV. At the beginning of a step, the timer will not start until PV is larger than SV-Hy-2+Hy and smaller thanSV+Hy-1-Hy. e. g. Set Hy-1=30, Hy-2=20, Hy=5 and SV=100. At the beginning of the step, if the temperature is below 85 (SV-Hy-2+Hy=85) degrees, or above 125 (SV+Hy-1-Hy=125) degrees, the controller will stop the timer to wait until the temperature is above than 85 degrees or below than 125 degrees before continuing. Please note that the Hy value should be smaller than both Hy-1 and Hy-2. Otherwise the controller will not start the next steps."

So it's all controlled by the Hy-1 (high alarm), Hy-2 (low alarm) and Hy (hysterisis band). So to prevent the timer from starting till 66 (PV) is reached
SV=66, Hy-1=2, Hy-2=2, Hy=1

timer will start once measured temp is above than 66-2+1= 65 (increase the Hy-1 and Hy-2 for a less tight control). For me I start the program and then press the down arrow for a few seconds which puts the program into hold mold. edit - I do not know whether these settings work or not as I haven't adjusted them on my system

Another way to do it is to have the
C1:66, t1:0
C2:66, t2:60
C3:66, t3:12
C4:78, t4:10
C5:78, t5:0
That will automatically bring the temp to 66 and hold until you manually press the down arrow for 2 seconds to move to the next step.

You are a legend. ( not many of us left )
Thanks heaps mate, I appreciate the help.

 

[fraser_john]

I think I did my autotune when it was at temp - it basically turns the element on and off at various times to determine the response. I have run it a few times initially across a few brews. I might run it again as I'm now restricting the flow when it's at rest temps.

From the manual
"users should use the safety start function to ensure that the temperature and time during ramping and soaking are kept within a reasonable range required by the process. This is done by setting the deviation alarm close to the SV. At the beginning of a step, the timer will not start until PV is larger than SV-Hy-2+Hy and smaller thanSV+Hy-1-Hy. e. g. Set Hy-1=30, Hy-2=20, Hy=5 and SV=100. At the beginning of the step, if the temperature is below 85 (SV-Hy-2+Hy=85) degrees, or above 125 (SV+Hy-1-Hy=125) degrees, the controller will stop the timer to wait until the temperature is above than 85 degrees or below than 125 degrees before continuing. Please note that the Hy value should be smaller than both Hy-1 and Hy-2. Otherwise the controller will not start the next steps."

So it's all controlled by the Hy-1 (high alarm), Hy-2 (low alarm) and Hy (hysterisis band). So to prevent the timer from starting till 66 (PV) is reached
SV=66, Hy-1=2, Hy-2=2, Hy=1

timer will start once measured temp is above than 66-2+1= 65 (increase the Hy-1 and Hy-2 for a less tight control). For me I start the program and then press the down arrow for a few seconds which puts the program into hold mold. edit - I do not know whether these settings work or not as I haven't adjusted them on my system

Another way to do it is to have the
C1:66, t1:0
C2:66, t2:60
C3:66, t3:12
C4:78, t4:10
C5:78, t5:0
That will automatically bring the temp to 66 and hold until you manually press the down arrow for 2 seconds to move to the next step.

This is the bit I was missing too! I could not figure out why I needed the C3 step you have above, will have to check what my Hy-1 and Hy-2 and Hy values are, would be nice to recover a few steps for additional mash schedule programs.

 

[cdbrown]

The good thing with the Hy stuff is that once it's set it doesn't matter what your SV is, the program will hold until it's near that temp. Also if it over runs for any reason the program will hold while it cools. I know I'll be changing these values next time.

The default is 9999 for Hy-1 and Hy-2 so to change them quickly you can press the A/M key to highlight the specific digit you want to change then drop the 9 down to 0 for the first 3 digits and the 9 down to 2 for the last. Much better than holding the down arrow while it counts down from 9999 to 2!

For my system my 1st step is actually set higher to match the water strike temp. I found that having the herms at the mash temp and pumping through the strike water I'd lose quite a bit of temp when it got into the mash tun. Then my mash temp in the tun was always lagging way behind my set temps.

 

[fraser_john]

When talking with Kirem, we could never figure out why his would just not move onto the timing of the next step till it reach the ramp temp, now I know why, his Hy values must have been set accordingly whilst mine are set to default.

 

[booargy]

Some good information here lads.
Been trying to work out how to use it as a boil timer. I think this may be the answer.

Cheers

 

[Crusty]

I think I did my autotune when it was at temp - it basically turns the element on and off at various times to determine the response. I have run it a few times initially across a few brews. I might run it again as I'm now restricting the flow when it's at rest temps.

From the manual
"users should use the safety start function to ensure that the temperature and time during ramping and soaking are kept within a reasonable range required by the process. This is done by setting the deviation alarm close to the SV. At the beginning of a step, the timer will not start until PV is larger than SV-Hy-2+Hy and smaller thanSV+Hy-1-Hy. e. g. Set Hy-1=30, Hy-2=20, Hy=5 and SV=100. At the beginning of the step, if the temperature is below 85 (SV-Hy-2+Hy=85) degrees, or above 125 (SV+Hy-1-Hy=125) degrees, the controller will stop the timer to wait until the temperature is above than 85 degrees or below than 125 degrees before continuing. Please note that the Hy value should be smaller than both Hy-1 and Hy-2. Otherwise the controller will not start the next steps."

So it's all controlled by the Hy-1 (high alarm), Hy-2 (low alarm) and Hy (hysterisis band). So to prevent the timer from starting till 66 (PV) is reached
SV=66, Hy-1=2, Hy-2=2, Hy=1

timer will start once measured temp is above than 66-2+1= 65 (increase the Hy-1 and Hy-2 for a less tight control). For me I start the program and then press the down arrow for a few seconds which puts the program into hold mold. edit - I do not know whether these settings work or not as I haven't adjusted them on my system

Another way to do it is to have the
C1:66, t1:0
C2:66, t2:60
C3:66, t3:12
C4:78, t4:10
C5:78, t5:0
That will automatically bring the temp to 66 and hold until you manually press the down arrow for 2 seconds to move to the next step.

I tried doing the above as a test. Pushed the down arrow to start the ramp & my temp went from ambient, 28deg to C1: 66.0, t:0, 21mins to get there. I left it alone for a few minutes, still holding @66.0, held the down arrow until run displayed. Started my stopwatch & expected a 60min hold till the next step, C2: 66.0, t60mins, 39mins was all I got till next step, C3: 66.0, t: 12 & so on. All the steps worked perfectly & all times were spot on, it's just that first step. My software programme requires me to heat my strike water up to 70deg for a 66deg sacc rest. Even if I miss by a couple of degrees & hit 64, I might just set the PID for a 65minn sacc rest to compensate.
I didn't look at the HY parameters.

 

[Crusty]

I think I did my autotune when it was at temp - it basically turns the element on and off at various times to determine the response. I have run it a few times initially across a few brews. I might run it again as I'm now restricting the flow when it's at rest temps.

From the manual
"users should use the "safety start" function to ensure that the temperature and time during ramping and soaking are kept within a reasonable range required by the process. This is done by setting the deviation alarm close to the SV. At the beginning of a step, the timer will not start until PV is larger than SV-Hy-2+Hy and smaller thanSV+Hy-1-Hy. e. g. Set Hy-1=30, Hy-2=20, Hy=5 and SV=100. At the beginning of the step, if the temperature is below 85 (SV-Hy-2+Hy=85) degrees, or above 125 (SV+Hy-1-Hy=125) degrees, the controller will stop the timer to wait until the temperature is above than 85 degrees or below than 125 degrees before continuing. Please note that the Hy value should be smaller than both Hy-1 and Hy-2. Otherwise the controller will not start the next steps."

So it's all controlled by the Hy-1 (high alarm), Hy-2 (low alarm) and Hy (hysterisis band). So to prevent the timer from starting till 66 (PV) is reached
SV=66, Hy-1=2, Hy-2=2, Hy=1

timer will start once measured temp is above than 66-2+1= 65 (increase the Hy-1 and Hy-2 for a less tight control). For me I start the program and then press the down arrow for a few seconds which puts the program into hold mold. edit - I do not know whether these settings work or not as I haven't adjusted them on my system

Another way to do it is to have the
C1:66, t1:0
C2:66, t2:60
C3:66, t3:12
C4:78, t4:10
C5:78, t5:0
That will automatically bring the temp to 66 and hold until you manually press the down arrow for 2 seconds to move to the next step.

Ok, got it sorted.
It was as simple as you said. Press run to start the programme & immediately press the down arrow to put it into hold mode. Your temperature will rise to your SV but the timer remains unaltered. When at the SV, hold the down arrow again & run it as normal.
Thanks heaps.

 

[cdbrown]

Instead of using the stop watch - if you press the SET button it will show you the number of the step it's currently running. Pressing it again will show the running time of the step. I have a feeling that on the first test it moved to C2 straight away (which can happen if that's the step you are looking at before hitting the run button).

 

[Crusty]

Instead of using the stop watch - if you press the SET button it will show you the number of the step it's currently running. Pressing it again will show the running time of the step. I have a feeling that on the first test it moved to C2 straight away (which can happen if that's the step you are looking at before hitting the run button).

Yeah,
I have been doing that. Tells you exactly where you are up to in a particular step, nice feature.
I was using a stopwatch to time the run cycles against the PID but now know why I was falling short.
All good now though.
Thanks again.

 

[davo4772]

Just finished building my RIMS . Little did I know the hardest part would be programming the PID (SYL-2353P)

Have jumped in the deep end. Any chance of some feedback on this programme.

I want a short, 5 min Protein rest at 55deg then ramp up to sacc rest at 66 (60 mins) then mashout at 78.

C1:55, t1:5
C2:55, t2:10
C3:66, t3:60
C4:66, t4:10
C5:78, t5:5
C6:78, t: -121

Cheers

 

[Crusty]

Just finished building my RIMS . Little did I know the hardest part would be programming the PID (SYL-2353P)

Have jumped in the deep end. Any chance of some feedback on this programme.

I want a short, 5 min Protein rest at 55deg then ramp up to sacc rest at 66 (60 mins) then mashout at 78.

C1:55, t1:5
C2:55, t2:10
C3:66, t3:60
C4:66, t4:10
C5:78, t5:5
C6:78, t: -121

Cheers

PID without a PHD, they are a bit tricky at first.
I based mine on a ramp speed of 1degC per minute so when ramping from 55 to 66 ( 11deg ) I set a 15m ramp time.
For your protein rest, sacc rest & mashout based on my ramp speed would be:

C1: 55, t1: 5
C2: 55, t2: 15
C3: 66, t3: 60
C4: 66, t4:15
C5: 78, t5: 10
C6: 78, t6:0 ( end programme

I am using gas for my HLT heating so when transferring mash in water to the mash tun, if I have missed my mash in temp all I do is this.
Press the down arrow to run the programme. Once running, hold down the arrow again till hold is displayed. The temp will ramp to your set 55deg but your timer won't start. Once at desired temp, hold down arrow again, run will show on PID & away you go. No further input required except sit back, have a beer & enjoy the luxury of temp control.
Something I am doing with my rims is running the water through the rims till it's clear, allowing any flour to settle in the grain bed. When it's nice & clear, I will turn on the element & let the PID take control.

 

[davo4772]

Thanks for that,

The last step 6. C6: 78, t6:0 ( end programme) does zero end the programme or hold??


One thing I have found confusing is raising the water temp from ambient to strike temp. Have tried to replicate the example in the instructions

"The following example holds the oven at 800 C for 2 hours.
Please note that the value of C is the beginning temperature of the step. e.g.
C01 is always the temperature at the beginning of the step 1. Usually C01 should be the ambient temperature, and t01 is the time from step1 to step2.
StEP1: C01=25, t01=30 Start linear temperature heating up from 25 C to
800 C, over a time period of 30 minutes (25.8 C /minute).
StEP2: C02=800, t02=120 Maintain 800 C for 120 minutes.
StEP3: C03=800, t03=-121 Stop the program and let the oven cool down.
The equation used to get the command number is -(30 * Command# + Next
Step) =-(30*4+1)=-121"

When I copied step 1 above for my ambient water (which was 23deg)
C1=23, t1=30
C2=60, t2=5
It hovered at ambient, no ramping to strike temp. Confusing.

 

[Crusty]

Thanks for that,

The last step 6. C6: 78, t6:0 ( end programme) does zero end the programme or hold??


One thing I have found confusing is raising the water temp from ambient to strike temp. Have tried to replicate the example in the instructions

"The following example holds the oven at 800 C for 2 hours.
Please note that the value of C is the beginning temperature of the step. e.g.
C01 is always the temperature at the beginning of the step 1. Usually C01 should be the ambient temperature, and t01 is the time from step1 to step2.
StEP1: C01=25, t01=30 Start linear temperature heating up from 25 C to
800 C, over a time period of 30 minutes (25.8 C /minute).
StEP2: C02=800, t02=120 Maintain 800 C for 120 minutes.
StEP3: C03=800, t03=-121 Stop the program and let the oven cool down.
The equation used to get the command number is -(30 * Command# + Next
Step) =-(30*4+1)=-121"

When I copied step 1 above for my ambient water (which was 23deg)
C1=23, t1=30
C2=60, t2=5
It hovered at ambient, no ramping to strike temp. Confusing.

At the end of the programme, it will display hold. Temperature will remain @78deg until you hold the up arrow to stop it.
The reason you were not getting any ramp is you haven't put in the extra step it needs to ramp from 23 ( ambient ) to 66. You have also missed the time that you want it to take to get from 23 to 66. You need to do this:

C1=23, t1=30
C2=23, t2=15 ( this tells the PID you want to take 15mins to ramp from 23 to C3:66deg )
C3=66, t=60
C4=66, t=15
C5=78, t=10
C6=78, t=0

To ramp from ambient ( which I have been doing for my water tests ) hold the down arrow till it displays run. As soon as it's away, hold the down arrow again until it displays hold. This enables you to ramp to your first step, 55deg protein rest, without losing time off the time you set for the first step. If you just run it, the PID starts to time whether you are at your set temperature or not.

 

[davo4772]

At the end of the programme, it will display hold. Temperature will remain @78deg until you hold the up arrow to stop it.
The reason you were not getting any ramp is you haven't put in the extra step it needs to ramp from 23 ( ambient ) to 66. You have also missed the time that you want it to take to get from 23 to 66. You need to do this:

C1=23, t1=30
C2=23, t2=15 ( this tells the PID you want to take 15mins to ramp from 23 to C3:66deg )
C3=66, t=60
C4=66, t=15
C5=78, t=10
C6=78, t=0

To ramp from ambient ( which I have been doing for my water tests ) hold the down arrow till it displays run. As soon as it's away, hold the down arrow again until it displays hold. This enables you to ramp to your first step, 55deg protein rest, without losing time off the time you set for the first step. If you just run it, the PID starts to time whether you are at your set temperature or not.

Thanks, that's much clearer now. I brewed today and of course my programme didnt work but was able to manage it manually. Not 100 percent happy with it's stability at sacc rest temp. Was set for 66 but was bouncing between 65 and 68, even after auto tune. No great drama but insulating the mash tun may make it more stable.
Going to leave it alone for a day or two, give my brain a rest and try some more practice runs with water.
Cheers.