Another Water Chem Question

[Julez]

Afternoon all,

I didn't want to crash the other thread going on this at the moment, so here goes with a new one...

My local water supply is quite low in Ca and Mg, but high in bicarbonates and sulfates. In order to get the bicarbonate level down, I figured the best way was to dilute with 75% distilled water. According to Palmer's nomograph, my mineral balance will then be spot on for Pilsen water, but my pH will still be slightly high. My predicted pH will be around 5.35 at mash temps, but I am looking to get it down to 5.2ish, for brewing a 100% pilsener malt beer.

So the question is, what is the best way to lower my pH, without altering my mineral balance? I would rather not use pH 5.2 stabilizer, purely based on the cost of it. What are the better (and most accessible) alternatives, from acidulated malt to phosphoric acid, etc? Or should I not even bother, is a pH of 5.35 close enough for this beer? Oh, and I need to work this out by the end of tomorrow!

Cheers :icon_cheers:

 

[Hargie]

....from memory every 1% acidulated will drop your mash pH 0.1....

 

[mika]

At 5.35 I wouldn't be bothered, YMMV

 

[Jye]

5.35 is close enough... however if you really feel the need to modify your water then go with some calcium chloride. You mentioned your water is low in Ca and ideally you want a minimum of 50ppm to help with mash conversion. You can even add some magnesium sulphate to increase the Mg level for the yeast.

Have another flick through chap 15 of How To Brew. You should really be concentrating on RA instead of matching water profiles to styles.

 

[geoffi]

Doesn't seem like enough to worry about, but how about half a teaspoon of citric acid just to get it down a little?

 

[Julez]

5.35 is close enough... however if you really feel the need to modify your water then go with some calcium chloride. You mentioned your water is low in Ca and ideally you want a minimum of 50ppm to help with mash conversion. You can even add some magnesium sulphate to increase the Mg level for the yeast.

Have another flick through chap 15 of How To Brew. You should really be concentrating on RA instead of matching water profiles to styles.

Thanks for the responses guys.

Jye, my water is approx 20ppm Ca and 14ppm Mg, but total Akalinity as CaCO3 is 89ppm. So the thing I am focusing on is the overall hardness of the water (or, not soft-enough-ness) . I was looking at the RA as well, but that corresponds with a pH too high for the style I'm brewing.

So my logic is, I don't want to increase Ca or Mg, as they are pretty right, but need to get the water a bit softer by reducing the alkalinity as CaCO3.

Palmer also talks about replicating brewing water styles, which seems to have an effect on things like bitterness, astringency, hop flavour, etc. So I am trying to achieve both a suitable mineral balance, and pH (with reference to RA, if you will).

I may well have misunderstood something in all that, as I am certainly no chemist!

 

[Gulf Brewery]

Thanks for the responses guys.

Jye, my water is approx 20ppm Ca and 14ppm Mg, but total Akalinity as CaCO3 is 89ppm. So the thing I am focusing on is the overall hardness of the water (or, not soft-enough-ness) . I was looking at the RA as well, but that corresponds with a pH too high for the style I'm brewing.

Julez

You need at least 50ppm of Ca for yeast health, A bit of CaSO4 (gypsum) will bring that up to the right level. While it will increase your overall alkalinity, the beer will be fine.

pH for the mash should be around 5.2 to 5.4, so don't panic as long as it close. You haven't mentioned what your normal water pH is which is more important for the sparge.

Cheers
Pedro

edit: corrected a brain fart about what gypsum was

 

[starkesbier]

Julez

You need at least 50ppm of Ca for yeast health, A bit of CaCO3 (gypsum) will bring that up to the right level. While it will increase your overall alkalinity, the beer will be fine.

pH for the mash should be around 5.2 to 5.4, so don't panic as long as it close. You haven't mentioned what your normal water pH is which is more important for the sparge.

Cheers
Pedro

Pedro,

Why 50ppm of Ca? :blink: I have heard this quoted before and wondered if there is a specific reason for 50ppm?

Cheers
Starkesbier

 

[Jye]

Water chemistry is one of the last things to learn in brew, so if anyone is going to go down this path I strongly recommend reading chapter 15 of how to brew at least 3 times.

Chapter 15

Calcium (Ca+2)
Atomic Weight = 40.0
Equivalent Weight = 20.0
Brewing Range = 50-150 ppm.
Calcium is the principal ion that determines water hardness and has a +2 charge. As it is in our own bodies, calcium is instrumental to many yeast, enzyme, and protein reactions, both in the mash and in the boil. It promotes clarity, flavor, and stability in the finished beer. Calcium additions may be necessary to assure sufficient enzyme activity for some mashes in water that is low in calcium. Calcium that is matched by bicarbonates in water is referred to as "temporary hardness". Temporary hardness can be removed by boiling (see Bicarbonate). Calcium that is left behind after the temporary hardness has been removed is called "permanent hardness".

 

[Gulf Brewery]

Pedro,

Why 50ppm of Ca? :blink: I have heard this quoted before and wondered if there is a specific reason for 50ppm?

Cheers
Starkesbier

starkesbier

It is just one of those things that has been determined by lots of scientific research. I have some books that describe why in more detail than you ever want to know, but for a quick summary, Jye's reply is spot on .

Cheers
Pedro

 

[Julez]

Julez

You need at least 50ppm of Ca for yeast health, A bit of CaCO3 (gypsum) will bring that up to the right level. While it will increase your overall alkalinity, the beer will be fine.

pH for the mash should be around 5.2 to 5.4, so don't panic as long as it close. You haven't mentioned what your normal water pH is which is more important for the sparge.

Cheers
Pedro

Thanks Pedro and Jye + others, for your suggestions.

I am finding there is a lot of conflicting advice on this subject <_< . Ray Daniels states that addition of gypsum is "completely inappropriate for the style", as the addition of sulfates in gypsum accentuates bitterness, whereas Calcium Chloride provides a much more "rounded-out" quality to the palate. And isn't CaCO3 chalk?

There is only 20ppm Ca in my local water, but I haven't had any problems with enzyme activity in my mash to date, mostly efficiencies around 80% (unsure if any impact on my yeast metabolism though?). I've only ever added Gypsum in the past, if anything at all. Though it seems 50ppm Ca is recommended minimum, as you say.

The real point of confusion for me, is that I thought it was common practice to emulate regional water profiles, when brewing specific styles? From How to Brew, below is what is listed for Pilsen water. Should I NOT be trying to emulate these mineral levels?

Table 15 - Water Profiles From Notable Brewing Cities

City: Pilsen

Calcium (Ca⁺²) 10ppm

Magnesium (Mg⁺²) 3ppm

Bicarbonate (HCO₃^-1) 3ppm

SO₄^-2 4ppm

Na⁺¹ 3ppm

Cl^-1 4ppm


edit: table didn't copy properly

 

[Stuster]

Julez

you are right, CaCO3 is calcium carbonate, chalk. Gypsum is CaSO4. You may be better off with CaCl2 if you already have high sulphate levels. I must have missed which style you are doing, but guessing from the pilsen water you are doing a bohemian pilsner I think you could not worry about using any additions. A different option would be to use some acidulated malt instead to get the pH down. But have you tested the pH of your mash yet? Does your mash need adjusting for this style?

I think that many people have been moving away from emulating water profiles for particular styles. There are a few difficulties with it. First, while the water from X city might be like this, you don't know that this is the water that a particular brewer uses, or what they do to that water to adjust it for their own process. Second, adjusting your water to try to get to a profile might be almost impossible and mean you get too much sulphate or carbonate or whatever. From Adelaide water, you'd cut have to cut it with reverse osmosis water I guess to get something approaching Pilsner. Palmer is one who now recommends getting the RA right instead. Have you tried the spreadsheet Palmer has instead of that strange graph thing. :huh:

 

[mika]

Comes down to whether you want to brew Stella Artois, or if you just want to brew a Pilsner style beer. I'm not out to clone any commercial recipes, so I wouldn't bother with what you're going thru. YMMV
If you want to alter your water chemistry, do it. If you don't want to, you don't have to.

 

[Julez]

Julez

you are right, CaCO3 is calcium carbonate, chalk. Gypsum is CaSO4. You may be better off with CaCl2 if you already have high sulphate levels. I must have missed which style you are doing, but guessing from the pilsen water you are doing a bohemian pilsner I think you could not worry about using any additions. A different option would be to use some acidulated malt instead to get the pH down. But have you tested the pH of your mash yet? Does your mash need adjusting for this style?

I think that many people have been moving away from emulating water profiles for particular styles. There are a few difficulties with it. First, while the water from X city might be like this, you don't know that this is the water that a particular brewer uses, or what they do to that water to adjust it for their own process. Second, adjusting your water to try to get to a profile might be almost impossible and mean you get too much sulphate or carbonate or whatever. From Adelaide water, you'd cut have to cut it with reverse osmosis water I guess to get something approaching Pilsner. Palmer is one who now recommends getting the RA right instead. Have you tried the spreadsheet Palmer has instead of that strange graph thing. :huh:

Hi Stuster, thanks for the explanation!

I think logically it makes sense to make the best of the local conditions and do what's reasonable to emulate a particular water profile. As you say, can't get it 100% right anyway and it is a bit of guess work, knowing what foreign brewers really do in terms of their brewing water, etc.

Generally speaking, I just want soft water that's low in sulfates and bicarbonates and in the ball park with pH. I'm still getting my head around the RA thing, so I will do some more reading when more time available. I can see how to work it out via the nomograph, but couldn't figure out the spreadsheet last time I looked at it :huh: . I don't really understand WHY it is a better measure than pH, so in the meantime, I will use pH!!

As for predicting mash pH, obviously it is just that - a prediction, but it helps in preparing for the brew day. Of course, I will measure my mash pH on the day to get a real reading and adjust accordingly.

Interestingly, my tap water comes out untreated at pH 7.65, but when I run it through my carbon filter it cuts it right back to 7.26! So I think by the time it's being mashed with grain, it might be pretty close anyway.

OK last thing then - I would like to have something on hand on brew day to acidify my mash and sparge water slightly, should it be required. I think Calcium Chloride does sound to be the go. Do most LHBS's sell it, or where else can I acquire some?

Cheers everyone, appreciate all the responses

 

[Stuster]

It's not really that it's better than pH, but RA is the way to work out what pH you'll get in a mash of a certain colour with the water you have. In terms of copying water profiles, I think that it's better to work out what you want from the water from first principles rather than thinking using that city's water. So if you want to emphasise the hoppiness add some gypsum, want more malt then go with calcium chloride of add some sodium etc. BTW, the pH of the tap water is not really that good a guide for how the pH will change in the mash. My water is supposedly around 8 but since it's very soft it drops very easily. Harder water might not have as high a pH but will buffer against dropping down to 5.2 quite so easily.

I got my calcium chloride from NNL as no local places had any. I should think some of the sponsors have it as well. Or you can go the alternative route that was suggested to me and get DampRid.

 

[Gulf Brewery]

OK, this is a hairy subject

You are trying to emulate the beer style and while the water is a significant part, it isnt the only part. You need to get the water close, but not exact

The calcium level change from 20 to 50 isn't going to change the flavour profile of the beer, but it can to make a lot of difference to your fermentation (not your mash).

We still do a very good pils with Adelaide water (enough said) and we have to add gypsum for the yeast side. We would prefer calcium chloride which would stop our sulphates from being so high, but it would give us a bad Cl level. So it is all about balance and getting it to the point where it assists the flavour profile you want, not working against it.


Cheers
Pedro


edit: Thanks stuster for spotting the obvious mistake and your explanations