American IPA - mash temps

[bcp]

About to a couple of american IPAs. I'm thinking that I want higher body with some residual sweetness to balance the IBUs, so was planning on high mash temperatures.

Just interested in others' experiences with american IPAs.

I'm doing a LCPA, then I'll use the yeast cake for a Bell's Two Hearted clone.
As a separate pair i'll brew a sierra nevada pale and use the same yeast for an Alesmith-style IPA.

 

[///]

70c -drop the crystal way back. Start 1.075, finish about 1.020

Scotty

 

[Kranky]

If you want to make a beer that's close to the original the best starting point is the brewery website. They often have information that will give you some good hints at what sort of mash temperatures you should be using.

If you look at Bell's website you will see that they give the starting gravity at 1064 and the abv. is 7% so it would be a lower mash temp. http://www.bellsbeer.com/brands/info/2

SNPA is given in Plato - 13.2 starting to 2.8 finishing http://www.sierranevada.com/beer/year-round/pale-ale

AleSmith's IPA is 1.072 with an abv of 7.25% so it is probably mashed at a higher temperature http://alesmith.com/beers/alesmith-ipa/

One way I like to try and track down a reliable recipe is searching the web for articles where the brewer or brewery have released the recipe. This list is useful and reliable : http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/can-you-brew-database-updated-11-2011-a-280749/

Other ways to get reliable recipes is to ask on here, search other websites where homebrewers discuss the recipe you are after in detail trying to clone it or email the brewery (I've had mixed success getting advice but it does work sometimes).

Remember that if you like sweet beer you will get a bigger hangover if you over do it and follow Scotty's advice and DO NOT overdo the crystal malts, too much crystal malt and Pacific West Coast hops are a train wreck.

 

[///]

Ohh jeez kranky, that's a bit harsh. The high mash gives lots dextrines, not so much sweetness, so at 7% alc the hangover is more from the booze.

But you need balance, with all those hops more than a few percent crystal it will taste like tin. Hence why a higher mash will help.

The Alesmith beer is also a killer, had it in the tasting room at the brewery and then lots if bottle did it ... Twas awesome

 

[Phoney]

I've made IPA's with up to 10% crystal and they've been awesome. No train wrecks or tinny tastes. Here's one im looking at right now, one of my favourites.


82% golden promise
8% crystal
5% victory
5% sugar
.5g/L chinook/simcoe/centennial @ FWH, 30, 15, 10, 0 and dry hop.
1.070 OG
80 IBU
mashed at 65C

:kooi:

 

[Kranky]

Higher mash temperatures give you longer chain sugars that yeast either struggle to consume or can't consume, which result in a sweeter beer. Sweet alcohol will give you a worse hangover than dry alcohol. Mash low and you can drink more. Russian River's iconic Pliny the Elder is mashed at 66.5C deliberately to produce a drier beer because Vinny Cilurzo doesn't like sweet alcohol, keep in mind that about 18 grams of hops per litre of finished beer are used for Pliny. Just down the road at Lagunitas you will find their IPA is mashed at 71C, and it's a superb beer. It's really a matter of preference at the end of the day.

I've never used that much crystal malt that it tasted like tin but I do know that too much crystal malt will kill off the the aromatic and flavour properties of PNW hops. It will depend on the grains that are used but much over 12% and you may start to encounter problems. Generally I wont use more than about 8% but if I'm trying to clone a beer and the recipe calls for it I will stick to the recipe.

The AleSmith IPA is a great beer but when I was in San Diego I preferred the Sculpin from Ballast Point.

 

[BreathingHeat]

I have never gotten the hype for AleSmith IPA. I actually found it to be overly dry, regardless of what the stats say....and I like a dry IPA. I have a sneaking suspicion that their staff, family and friends are ratebeer members.

For IPAs and IIPAs, I generally mash low around 64, limit crystal to ≤4%, and add 3-4% dextrose. Even with FGs around 1.010-1.014 I still don't find the beers too dry and am happy with the mouthfeel. I suppose 7-10% ABV range helps balance the dryness.

 

[slash22000]

Bell's Two Hearted ale clone straight from the brewers: https://i.imgur.com/bfITU9X.jpg

If you're worried about balance, I wouldn't mess around trying to mash for a high final gravity, just reduce the IBU's. I mean it's up to you of course, personally I reckon a 1.020 FG IPA, you might as well blend hops with some golden syrup and chug it down. :huh:

 

[Yob]

Step mash and control the temps and times + the right malts.. Piss the crystal right off, not required if step mashing.

I mash low for 60 then ramp up through to 72 over the second hour, and dex added late in the ferment.. If required..

That said, dunno about cloning, I find it impossible to stick to a recipe (even my own are loosely considered as a starting point) and rarely Brew the exact thing twice..

I find that ever changing goal post one of the most enjoyable parts of home brewing…

 

[JasonP]

Step mash and control the temps and times + the right malts.. Piss the crystal right off, not required if step mashing.

I mash low for 60 then ramp up through to 72 over the second hour, and dex added late in the ferment.. If required..

That said, dunno about cloning, I find it impossible to stick to a recipe (even my own are loosely considered as a starting point) and rarely Brew the exact thing twice..

I find that ever changing goal post one of the most enjoyable parts of home brewing…

You mash for 2 hours?

 

[Edak]

Also never tried adding dex late in fermentation, care to elaborate?

 

[Yob]

For a big IIPA and a single batch like last night's (screw efficiency) I went a big bill, something like 9kg (single), an extended mash can help with a more fermentable wort, giving beta more time to cut up the longer chains, I was pushed for time and with my fly sparge ran off quicker than I normally would and was still running 1030 wort when I was at full boil volume, I knew this would be the case, sort of a partigyle but discarding the second gyle. 1075. Should finish 1014ish.

're dex addition.. Added early can make the yeast lazy, added late can give them the legs to finish it all up nicely.

 

[JasonP]

For a big IIPA and a single batch like last night's (screw efficiency) I went a big bill, something like 9kg (single), an extended mash can help with a more fermentable wort, giving beta more time to cut up the longer chains, I was pushed for time and with my fly sparge ran off quicker than I normally would and was still running 1030 wort when I was at full boil volume, I knew this would be the case, sort of a partigyle but discarding the second gyle. 1075. Should finish 1014ish.

're dex addition.. Added early can make the yeast lazy, added late can give them the legs to finish it all up nicely.

I doubt there would be much beta-amylase activity in the second hour at 72degrees. Maybe some but guessing it would be insignificant. I don't really understand why people mash at one temp, say low 60s for an hour and then increase to 70 for an extended period of time. If mashing in the low 60s then a 10 mins 70 mash will be sufficient to finish off sacchrification and make the wort less viscous. Anything more is a waste of time, unless someone can convience me otherwise.

 

[Yob]

both enzymes are active throughout the temperature ranges, just more so at particular temps.

soooo.. more time at a lower temp will 'cut up' the longer chains of sugars. Starches are converted pretty quickly in a mash, it's the time spent at various temps that determines the type of sugars created. There is overlap between them.

as stated above, I didnt mash for 72 for an hour, it was a step mash. 64/60 66/20 68/15 72/15 78/15 (or very close to it)... lots of overlap.

If you dont think a step mash can affect the composition of a wort.. try it on an infusion recipe you are familiar with.

 

[JasonP]

both enzymes are active throughout the temperature ranges, just more so at particular temps.

soooo.. more time at a lower temp will 'cut up' the longer chains of sugars. Starches are converted pretty quickly in a mash, it's the time spent at various temps that determines the type of sugars created. There is overlap between them.

as stated above, I didnt mash for 72 for an hour, it was a step mash. 64/60 66/20 68/15 72/15 78/15 (or very close to it)... lots of overlap.

If you dont think a step mash can affect the composition of a wort.. try it on an infusion recipe you are familiar with.

I'm familiar of mash enzymes and their optimum temperatures and know that they overlap. Alpha amylase is more heat resistant and is still very active at 70, but beta isn't so much. So i fail to see what the mix of your step mash would achieve. Both alpha and beta would be very active in the 60degree and 60mins at this temp should have converted all the starch. Increasing the temp into the 70s would only promote alpha not beta but since all starch should have been converted, then this is a waste of time and achieves nothing. It would make more sense it the step mash temperatures were shorter in time, but even then not sure why would would want 5 steps in a 14 degrees range.

 

[Yob]

Starches are converted quite quickly in a mash, not that I do one but an iodine test will show this.. As to why? Coz I can and I perceive a benefit from it.

 

[JasonP]

Starches are converted quite quickly in a mash, not that I do one but an iodine test will show this.. As to why? Coz I can and I perceive a benefit from it.

I'm not meaning to be an arsehole, but merely trying to understand why people do this. I reckon if you analysed the carbohdrate profile after 60mins at 64degrees and after your mash out - there would be very little difference, hence why bother. As you said starch conversion is pretty quick and should be done after 30 mins at 64 degrees so i fail to see what the rest of your mash profile gives you.
Step mashing I understand for certain malts, but not for well modified barley and not in the temperature ranges that you step.

 

[manticle]

60 min beta rest won't leave much for alpha. There's a finite amount of starch. Chop it all into short chains, you can't paste it back
together
I'll mash low 60s for a maximum of 15-20 when I want a dry beer like a saison. If I want to add body to a beer I'll eithrr mash short at high temps or mash low briefly and high for longer.

Dextrins aren't particularly sweet in my experience and I've not noticed hangovers be more prominent from beers finishing higher.

 

[manticle]

Jasonp - modified malts doesn't mean step mashes are ineffective but you are right about the times.

 

[JasonP]

Jasonp - modified malts doesn't mean step mashes are ineffective but you are right about the times.

true. if the rest times were 15mins or so then maybe they'd be a difference, hence my original question of a 2 hour mash.