A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

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JUst mashed out my latest IPA and have some measurements..
05min 46.0%eff
30min 67.5%
60min 67.5%
after raising temp over fifteen mins to 76C
75min 72.4%

Now I know my measurements are likely to be out slightly (I normally see a slight increase between the 30 and 60 min), but 4.9%points over fifteen minutes is significant!
I never used to mash out cos I thought "I'm pulling the bag out, so no need to kill the enzymes"
I will now....

Excuse the consecutive posting but I have been busy for the last few nights.

Lloydie, good on ya! It's a great thing when people take the time and trouble to record and report their figures. I can't tell you how grateful I am to you and the others who have been sending me their figures since the post I did in the BIAB Brewer Register thread a while back.

As individuals, we can't rely on one-time measurements but as a group we already have some reliable and consistent data.

Currently, we don't have enough info on mash lengths versus efficiency. I really need to re-think the current template we are working on.

Thanks mate,
Pat
 
I think we all appreciate your interest and are grateful that you have taken the time to explore BIAB.



It certainly is and mimeryberg sent us pictures of the Braumaister in the early days of us exploring BIAB. He is currently working on building his own as you can see in this post. My goodness!

If you look back on these early days, you will see that I was also an apartment brewer (still am but now have outdoor space) and used to batch-sparge and then BIAB with my 3 ring gas burner. I always had a great sea-breeze in that apartment though :) .

I know little about BIAB brewing in an urn but I think it is certainly the way to go in an apartment - much better than what I used to do inside my old apartment. Crundle and BribieG above are both urn brewers and they are very willing to help new BIABers - good on them! They are really helpful brewers so make sure you ask them lots of questions. It's about time we all learned about urn brewing anyway as we have always been mainly focussed on gas rather than electric in this thread so far.

Anyway Nick, we will all look forward to helping you out and seeing a new thread here on AHB titled, "First BIAB done in Greece."

;)
Pat

You can count on that .I will do it for sure,Also I have deside to do it using gas and brewing outside at my balcony so my wife will stay calm no more stress about cleaning the kithen after a brewday.
I will try to gather all what I need and I will give it a go .For now I reading stuff about Allgrain and listening (I have listen it more than 3 times) the interview at the BasicBrewing radio on BIAB method.
 
I have seen that BIAB is going well or raising interested eyebrows on USA, NZ, English and Irish forums but I don't think we have a European ambassador yet. It looks like you might be the man!

This guy in Tnsberg, Norway won a Beer Battle in his brewing club with BIAB in 2008
http://www.bryggeri.net/viewtopic.php?t=1618&start=315
(post number 4)

This guy in Sweden is also doing BIAB
http://www.humle.se/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=2396
(watch his signature)

In Denmark this group is also doing (a sort of) BIAB I think B)
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1498...p;id=1064825291

No need to be modest here :D :D :D

Regards
Flemming

PS: Beer Battle is "invented" in my local home brew club. 2 og 3 months in advance we agree to brew 2-4 specifik types of beer, and the the monthly meeting you bring some samples to let the other mebbers taste and evaluate. (http://aal-bryg.dk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=330 - next time it is Trippel and Saison)
The most glorious winner of the year is the one, who make the best christmasbeer
 
Have had a very busy 3 or 4 weeks and have fallen way behind or missed too much correspondence. Please excuse my slow reply Nick and Flemming and my apologies to some others I know read this thread but I still haven't got to in other correspondence. I'll be in Sydney for most of the next week (but have no time for beers :angry:) so expect more sub-standard communication.

Nick

Even though you have decided to brew outside, the BIAB brewing in an urn could still be worth investigating especially if you can never see the need for doing double-batches. Ask as many questions as you like here on using gas or electric. There are heaps of brewers that will help you out in this thread and everyone learns.

If you can see a need for ever doing double batches, then I think go gas and buy a 70lt pot. Before I had enough refrigeration, I used to put my fermenter in my 70lt pot, wrap it in foam and use ice bricks to control the ferment.

I have two 70lt kettles now but only double-batch if I brew with someone else. I am going to try "No-Chill," soon to make better use of my kettles and time but maybe, as an apartment brewer, I would have been better off having two urns? It is certainly worth considering.

No decision you make will be perfect Nick ;). Just try and make sure that whatever you buy you can see a use for down the track.

Flemming

Thanks for the links Flemming. I need to use the Google translator though and I don't know how :( . I liked the pics though. Yep, I couldn't quite work out what they were doing in your last link. My goodness!
 
One ramble before I go to Sydney ;) ...

Syphon versus Ball-Valves - My Verdict

Well, after 3 years of using an auto-syphon, I finally relented and drilled the holes in my 2 kettles for ball-valves.

I never had any major problems with the auto-syphon until they increased the internal diameter of the ones they sell here. The new ones basically are a nightmare. They pretty much don't work and were what prompted me to finally go for ball-valves.

I have now done one brew with the ball-valves and am now fully re-committed to coming up with an auto-syphon system that actually works.

Ball-valves might look good and give you a few moments pleasure on brew day as you open and close them and control flow but that's where it starts and that is where it ends. It's a bit like BIAB versus traditional for me where BIAB is awkward for a moment but in all other ways it is superb. The awkward moment is when you have to pull the bag (though even this can be made easy) but in doing this, you don't have to buy/maintain/clean two other vessels and you don't have to clean the grain from (and usually pull apart/re-assemble) a mash tun etc. (A lot of BIABers probably don't even realise how awkward it is cleaning out an esky from grain.)

But, nothing is more awkward than cleaning/sanitising.

What a pleasure my original auto-syphon was compared to these ball-valves! My original auto-syphon was a little inconvenient in some ways but nothing compared to ball-valves.

Here is what you should consider before drilling holes in your kettle for ball-valves...

1. Working out what valve to buy - This was a challenge in itself and I had to correspond with a high-tech brewer mate of mine just to narrow down what I should be looking for.
2. Working out where to source the auxiliary components - My experienced mate or myself could not find one retailer that had everything in stock at the time of purchase. I had to investigate, at great time/travel expense, the individual components and there weren't many. I ended up purchasing them from 4 different places. (Try finding SS washers and silicone O-rings for a start.)
3. Assembly - I finally got all the bits and had double O-rings and food-grade grease and Teflon tape (3 rolls). So now wrap any threads with Teflon to the right thickness (if you need a component to end up at a set point) and start assembling. (Also see 8 below regarding spanners.)
4. Now Test It - Well now that you have spent so long assembling your tap, you better test it because there is a good chance it will leak from somewhere. The only way to really test it is to fill your kettle with water. If it does leak, undo it all and start again. Or, you could risk it and wait until your kettle is full of liquor on brew day.
5. Ah! This is great!!!! - Yep, this is the bit you have been waiting for. This is the bit where you can swing on the tap and control flow etc. Enjoy it because it gets worse from here. Remember, this bit only lasts a minute. Now you can make things more fun by throwing a dice because now you have two alternatives...
6. Cleaning Alternative 1 - You could put some water (or even a cleaner and then a sanitiser) in your kettle and boil it. (This btw takes time and gas). Anyway, run it/them through your tap, opening and closing the tap ten or twenty times and then you might think your kettle tap is actually clean and sterile. If you do that, then cross your fingers. It is actually impossible to clean and sterilse a ball-valve without pulling it completely apart (thanks Doogiechap for educating me on this). Just ask one of the QLD traditional brewers here on AHB, who several years ago, lost 1500 lts of beer over many, many months and brews simply due to his kettle ball-valve. No one picked up on this and now he pulls it apart after every brew.
7. Cleaning Alternative 2 - You can get lucky or you can pull the ball-valve apart. I have pulled both mine apart after 1 brew and also a mates after 3 brews. My mates smelt ripe and mine were both already gummy and certainly smelt unclean even though I had opened and closed the tap a heap of times. So let's pull the taps apart. Agree?
8. Disassembly - Get three spanners out just to do the 3 piece ball-valve. You'll also need a few other spanners to undo the parts extending from the ball-valve. Make sure you undo the bits in correct order otherwise you won't have enough leverage to undo some bits.
9. Cleaning Part 1 - Get rid of all the teflon tape you used in assembly. This is a ******* and will keep you occupied for a while. You will need a wire brush.
10. Cleaning Part 2 - Alkaline soak/scrub/rinse.
12. De-Mineralise/Sanitise 1 - Acid soak/scrub/rinse.
13. Assembly/Sanitise 2 - Get your teflon tape out, your spanners and your no-rinse sanitiser and go back to (3) above.

Necessity must certainly be the mother of invention because I just had 2 simple ideas on how to improve my faithful old auto-syphon. Cool!

I hope the above makes new BIABers seriously consider a stainless steel racking cane and syphon hose before they start drilling holes etc.

In the meantime, when I get back from Sydney, I'll see the stainless steel guy we use in my work, and now that I have a clear idea of what is needed, will see if he can make what I want.

Spot!
Pat
 
One ramble before I go to Sydney ;) ...

Syphon versus Ball-Valves - My Verdict

SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP--SNIP

I hope the above makes new BIABers seriously consider a stainless steel racking cane and syphon hose before they start drilling holes etc.

Hey Pat here's the salient point edited for brevity ;) , whether you BIAB or not there is a lot to be said for a stainless racking cane and regular changes of tubing for sanitary movement of wort or beer from one vessel to another!
 
Mate, our talk last week was one of the inspirations for the above. You are the man!

Edit: What are all those snips? - LOL!
 
One ramble before I go to Sydney ;) ...

Syphon versus Ball-Valves - My Verdict
[Snip]

A couple of noob questions (5 BIABS so far) about ball valves. Is it necessary to dissemble the ball valve if you're no-chilling? i.e. does running 90degC wort through the ball valve for a few minutes adequately kill off the nasties to forgo dissembling every time?

Which leads me to my next question - how on earth do you actually dissemble a ball valve? I looked at the ball valve on my pot last night after reading your post in the infections thread, and for the life of me I don't even know where to start.
 
Pat is certainly correct on a number of points. They introduce complexity to your pot. They need to be drilled and installed etc ... and then they make general cleaning of your pot harder. AND if you chill your brew in the kettle (rather than Cf, Plate or No chill) then they represent a significant risk point for infection and if you use them you should seriously consider 3 part valves that you can pull apart - but then you actually have to clean them too.

But just to give a countering point of view....

$10 chrome plated ball valves and nice brass nuts and allthread from Bunnings have served me well for 100+ batches. Cleaned and sanitised by running detergent through them and opening and closing them frequently.

They have been off the kettle a couple of times.. but because they don't come apart, they have never been apart. I no-chill now, and this significantly reduces the issue of ball valves contributing to infections ... but there were 50+ chilled brews before that too, all without issue.

Ball valves, once installed - really are a fair bit easier to use than racking. They mean you aren't working over a kettle full of hot wort and if you chill in the kettle, mean that you don't have to open a kettle full of cool wort in order to drain it out - I would consider this to be as serious an infection critical control point as are the ball valves themselves.

At the moment - if I was to consider a brew where i chilled in the kettle, I would have to go to some effort to boil a pot full of water and recirculate it through the valve for a while (opening and closing often) before I thought it was good to go infection wise ... but I would consider that sufficient if less than completely fool proof. I may do it with wort during the boil.... As it is, I no chill and believe that that renders the issue null.

Not saying Pat is wrong, or even that syphoning is bad or hard .. its just that there are a lot of brewers out there having no issues at all with using ball valves and who think they are worth it.

It is good to see Pat continuing to challenge some of teh traditions -- it seems to be almost "lore" that you need ball valves ... which of course you don't.

I still like em though

TB
 
I'm with pat, and I appreciate and respect others with valves and have done the extra yards to get them set up.

Racking is a piece of piss from the brew pot into a no chill cube.

1. You've sanitised the racking cane and tube.
2. Flush it with water from the tap, this pre-fills it with water.
3. Hold both ends up in the air. This traps water inside the tube and rack.
4. Place the racking cane into the brew pot at the same time bend down and point the end of the tube into a spare bowl or spare juice container.
5. In 1 to 2 seconds the water is done coming out and has pulled hot wort down with it
6. Point the tube into the no chill cube hole
7. Wait... done... cap no chill cube.


That simple. And no holes in the pot means you can sell it to a brewer or you can sell it to a chef or anyone really as you have not modified the pot.


Between #5 and #6 is the optional get a hose clamp and use that to clamp off the flow in the tube. Then point it into the no chill cube and undo the clam and the hot wort flows.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete
 
sirotilc: Ball-valves are very nicely machined, so well machined that you often can't see where the join is. Also, they can be bloody hard to pull apart the first time especially if they are two piece ones (i.e. the ones without four bolts). I split a mates the other day and had to use stilsons around the body of the tap and a huge spanner on the end. Ended up having to use my foot. Can't help you any more than that I'm sorry but if you post a pic up maybe someone can help you out more.

Also, bear in mind that as ThirstyBoy said above, heaps of people don't have any problems at all. I am ulltra-paranoid about everything..... Did you just hear that? :unsure:

:D

Thirsty: It's weird how so many people use ball-valves and never have a problem. I'd love to see a survey on how often people pull them apart, if ever, and whether they have had a problem. Every one I have pulled apart (my fermenter and dispensing ones plus those of other brewers) has always been dirty or infected.

There are quite a few brewers around who pay scant regard to hygiene and their beers are excellent. Quite funny really. I wonder, and I am serious here, if there is some bug that can infect your equipment, stop othrer bugs from competing against it and yet give no off-flavours? If anyone finds such a bug, they should sell it I reckon :).

Gotta get me to Sydney so I'll spot ya ron,
Pat

[Edit: Missed your post Pete but I have been enjoying reading your experiments in other threads. Good stuff mate!]
 
Ive been asked to give a sort of BIAB presentation at the Auckland guild of beer and wine makers next wednesday :icon_cheers:

Will update with how it goes B)
 
I wonder, and I am serious here, if there is some bug that can infect your equipment, stop othrer bugs from competing against it and yet give no off-flavours? If anyone finds such a bug, they should sell it I reckon :) .

I'm fairly sure Muckey may have isolated that particular bug....he's one of the slackest buggers I've ever met when it comes to cleaning and sanitation, and bugger me, I don't think he's done a single (noticibly, and/or detrimentally (sp?)) infected batch yet. :p
 
Mate, our talk last week was one of the inspirations for the above. You are the man!

Edit: What are all those snips? - LOL!

I was trying to save electrons by cutting out the fluff and getting to the point :p

Like you I have had "infections from hell" and I found going back to absolute basics and being able to elimate contamination steps/ stages the best way to solve it wait till I start talking about buckets :ph34r:

As far as pulling ball valves apart the first 2 piece one I tried to disassemble actually distorted and fscked itself when I cranked on it with a big spanner :excl: they actually come apart easier when a fitting is screwed into each end so they can't distort. But 3 pieces are the way to go even if they cost a bit more. TB's comment is interesting, some brewers have problems and some don't Tony's saga is food for thought, all down to one manky valve.


If you can't pull it apart then it not worth having is my motto :icon_cheers:
 
I'd like to clarify my comments some

I absolutely do believe that ball valves are a critical point for possible infection and should be maintained in a clean state - the best way is to buy stainless 3 piece valves and disassemble them regularly.

I think it is much less of an issue for those who dont use an immersion chiller - but it is still a potential trouble spot. No more so than a bad syphon hose or racking cane - and no more so than having to open a kettle full of cooled wort (IMHO anyway) - but certainly one of the places to add to your list of basics to go back to if you have trouble, thats for sure.

That said, this is one of the areas where i have been a bit slack in my brewing - I am careful about insuring that the valves are as well cleaned as they can be without pulling them apart - and I no-chill ... so I think that is sufficient. BUT, I bet if I did pull my kettle valve apart.. it would have gunk in it, that gunk builds up to a certain level and its probably going to be trouble.

I have 3 piece on my current mash tun - and when my new BB mash tun arrives, it will have one too ... so the current one will go onto the kettle. Then I will be a "good" brewer - till now I have been a slack (ish) but lucky brewer.

Its just that there are lots of other brewers who are pretty much as lucky as me - so it would seem it's not all that lucky.

You could remove the tap - and boil it on the stove for an hour or so (better yet in the pressure cooker) - then any goo inside will contain nothing but dead bugs not capable of infecting your precious brew. Thats probably better than nothing.

TB
 
Thank you again for your replies .I would like to ask something propably silly to you but I was a little confused.
Just for shorting my thoughts.Let's say that I buy that 60 litre kettle I was talking about .I have a lot of interesting recipies which they are for 19liter batch (5 gallons).If I dont want to complicate things and want to follow exact the recipie what is the total amount of water needed ? Also for smaller batches lets say 10 liters what size of pot is recomended?
 
Thank you again for your replies .I would like to ask something propably silly to you but I was a little confused.
Just for shorting my thoughts.Let's say that I buy that 60 litre kettle I was talking about .I have a lot of interesting recipies which they are for 19liter batch (5 gallons).If I dont want to complicate things and want to follow exact the recipie what is the total amount of water needed ? Also for smaller batches lets say 10 liters what size of pot is recomended?

Now you are getting back to basics.

One of my big problems is with people that give recipes and do not allow for enough losses. Sometimes I have to adjust the recipe a bit because I actually end up with more wort then they say they do.

So the basics are how much beer do you want. Then add how much you leave behind in your fermentor, how much do you leave behind in the kettle, how much does the grain absorb, and how much water do you boil off when brewing. This will give you what you need to start with. I grew in gallons and with my system I need about 8.5 gallons to end up with 5 gallons of beer. It all depends on the brew and the grain bill. I brew in a converted 50 liter keg.

If you want to brew 10 liter batches I think a big stock pot would work. You can figure size based on recommendations of traditional sized brews. I am not ready to tackle metric conversions this early in my day.
 
Thank you again for your replies .I would like to ask something propably silly to you but I was a little confused.
Just for shorting my thoughts.Let's say that I buy that 60 litre kettle I was talking about .I have a lot of interesting recipies which they are for 19liter batch (5 gallons).If I dont want to complicate things and want to follow exact the recipie what is the total amount of water needed ? Also for smaller batches lets say 10 liters what size of pot is recomended?

It's not possible to give you a definitive answer - it will depend on how much you boil off in your boil, how long you boil for, how much your system ends up losing as losses to trub, how much grain your recipe calls for ... quite a few things. Pat has some nice information on how different systems behave and I am sure he will share with you.. but at the end of the day, everybody's system is a little different. You brew, get it a little bit wrong, adjust for next time and get closer and closer each time.

To give you an idea - to fill a 19L keg with a normal sort of beer, I'd say that you will be starting with between 30 and 33L litres of water in your pot. But it will vary a bit depending on your system and the beers you brew.

TB
 
Thanks I was looking for this kind of answer just a typical amount of starting water needed.So I believe for 10 liter batch 20-25 liters is needed.
 

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