A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[amita]

For me, there are a couple of questions still to be answered about BIAB and its longer term results, but the fermentability thing is just a closed issue.

gday thirsty,I am curious to hear about your other questions you have, would you mind sharing them?

thanks amita

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

2. after mashing when do i start timing my boil from. from the moment a rolling boil starts, or when a rapid boil starts, and then i can reduce the heat

Doesn't matter. As long as you do the same thing each time so you can increase your consistency, it is a detail, IMO.

3. i tried the wort once it was cooled in the fermenter, and it looked cloudy and tasted gritty. i assume this will fall out of suspension over time, but have i done something wrong, or can i do better next time somehow?

It could be to do with how you got the wort from your kettle to your fermenter. If you gave the hot wort a big stir - creating a whirlpool - and let it settle for a while then carefully drew from the top of the liquid (for example), I would expect to collect a very clear wort. If you did what I did for a while and pour the whole bloddy lot into the fermenter or cube - hop trub, break material, dead insects and all - you might see what you're describing... Whichever way, gravity is a weak force but very persistent.

What to do depends on whether you choose to Chill or NoChill, I think.

What was your recipe for this brew?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

For me, there are a couple of questions still to be answered about BIAB and its longer term results, but the fermentability thing is just a closed issue.

gday thirsty,I am curious to hear about your other questions you have, would you mind sharing them?

thanks amita

More or less the same as you amita. Just need to really convince myself that there are no real long term stability issues. I'm mostly sure. I have a 4 month old stout and a 7month old (but crappy) barleywine. Neither of these beers is showing any signs of premature ageing. They are aging, but only at the rate I would expect.

I'd say the amount of care you take with racking and oxygen exposure is still going to be the biggest factor in how your beers age. But with a normal amount of reasonable care... I haven't noticed stability issues. If you aren't so careful... maybe BIAB will show up your lack of effort more than other methods.... who knows?

Apart from that, its just general quality. I've had plenty of good BIAB homebrews and a couple of very good ones, but haven't yet had a great one. But that needs to be balanced out by the fact that I haven't had very many "great" homebrews of any description. A few, but by definition, they aren't all that common. Who knows, its possible that BIAB will never produce a "great" beer. The only way we will find out is over a period of time, by competition results.

If BIAB beers manage to win even one or two medals, then we know that the method is capable of producing beer at the top of the quality spectrum; and that puts all the debate to rest. If they never manage to win a medal at all... then that tells us that while BIAB might make good beers, its not a way to produce the "best" beers.

But thats going to take a bit of time to become evident, I wont be making any judgements inside of the next few years. Hell, I'm two+ years and 60 odd brews into my AG career and I only won my first medals this year (grand total of two so far!!) so its not like anyone should expect BIAB brewers to have produced award winning beers yet. Give it a chance, if they never do, fair cop - BUT on the other hand, the very first BIAB medal proves all the naysaying wrong.

I know how I expect it to turn out.

Thirsty

 

[joshuahardie]

Probably grasping at straws here, but what temp did you mash at and for how long?

Soz

I mashed at 67 degrees for 90 minutes

 

[joshuahardie]

Doesn't matter. As long as you do the same thing each time so you can increase your consistency, it is a detail, IMO.
It could be to do with how you got the wort from your kettle to your fermenter. If you gave the hot wort a big stir - creating a whirlpool - and let it settle for a while then carefully drew from the top of the liquid (for example), I would expect to collect a very clear wort. If you did what I did for a while and pour the whole bloddy lot into the fermenter or cube - hop trub, break material, dead insects and all - you might see what you're describing... Whichever way, gravity is a weak force but very persistent.

What to do depends on whether you choose to Chill or NoChill, I think.

What was your recipe for this brew?

I think you are right about this. I chilled in a sink of cold water until the beer was 34 degrees, in this time i did stir and whilpool to get a faster chill, but i did pour all of the wort into the fermenter (albeit through a strainer to remove the hop trub. so i guess it will drop out of suspension in the fermenter, and i might as well add some finings to make sure.

Next time ill invest in a siphon tube and rack it that way.

As the recipe was a partial (due to pot size) i did BIAB with 14 litres, with 3kg of pale base malt. i didn't add any bittering hops. just 80gms of cascade near flameout. i added a can of coopers pale hopped extract and diuted the whole amount in the fermenter to 22l.
OG is 1052, and i plan to dry hop in a few days when most of the fermentation has finished.

Yeah it is a bit of a here and there method, but i really wanted to give BIAB a go. hopefully it will work out.

Thanks for the advice Spills
Josh

 

[amita]

gday thirsty

quote:
I'd say the amount of care you take with racking and oxygen exposure is still going to be the biggest factor in how your beers age. But with a normal amount of reasonable care... I haven't noticed stability issues. If you aren't so careful... maybe BIAB will show up your lack of effort more than other methods.... who knows?


I agree with you there thirsty,for sure one has to upgrade the efforts, cleanliness and etc, more methodical and organised.
one trick I learned was to let some CO2 in the fermenter/or racking vessel when it comes to filling bottles or keg,,as it is heaver than air it provides a flexible barrier and stops air getting into you wort.



quote:
Apart from that, its just general quality. I've had plenty of good BIAB homebrews and a couple of very good ones, but haven't yet had a great one. But that needs to be balanced out by the fact that I haven't had very many "great" homebrews of any description. A few, but by definition, they aren't all that common. Who knows, its possible that BIAB will never produce a "great" beer. The only way we will find out is over a period of time, by competition results.


one thing that people dont include much is the recipe of beer,if you dont have a recipe that you know makes a good beer that you like you cannot expect that any method of brewing will change that,so how about brewing your medal winning brew( congratulations by the way!) 2 ways?side bu side, same ingredients just different methods and keep us informed of you findings??
that would be much aprreciated.

cheers and keep up the good brewing :icon_cheers:

amita

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

... one thing that people dont include much is the recipe of beer,if you dont have a recipe that you know makes a good beer that you like you cannot expect that any method of brewing will change that ...

In general, my best beers have been those that came from a proven recipe. There are notable exceptions (at both ends of the spectrum) of course. When I take a recipe that has won medals (plural) and brew it myself, the result is - as you would expect - better than a recipe I pull out of my arse. I find recipe formulation as much fun as the balance of the brewing, so I will (hopefully) continue to improve my skills in that area.

If the equipment was everything, everyone would make excellent beer once they purchased the Mr Excellent Beer Machine(tm). My feeling is that it comes well after recipe, quality of ingredients and the applied skill of the brewer.

 

[amita]

In general, my best beers have been those that came from a proven recipe. There are notable exceptions (at both ends of the spectrum) of course. When I take a recipe that has won medals (plural) and brew it myself, the result is - as you would expect - better than a recipe I pull out of my arse. I find recipe formulation as much fun as the balance of the brewing, so I will (hopefully) continue to improve my skills in that area.

If the equipment was everything, everyone would make excellent beer once they purchased the Mr Excellent Beer Machine(tm). My feeling is that it comes well after recipe, quality of ingredients and the applied skill of the brewer.

I agree with you there, im just curious the know more about it all,I see in the BIAB register that you use mixed methods?what are they?
and have you tried the same recipe as BIAB/mixed method compared to "traditional mashing" or otherwise methods?
would appriciate your findings or comments,

cheers amita

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I agree with you there, im just curious the know more about it all,I see in the BIAB register that you use mixed methods?what are they?

I only brew BIAB. 'Mixed methods' refers to how I fuel the boil: electric for big batches and (stovetop) gas for small batches. I also usually NoChill big batches and kitchen sink dunkchill small batches. I usually naturally carbonate, but sometimes the devil makes me force-carbonate.

Being a Man Of Science, I don't have enough brews under my belt to draw any conclusions that I am comfortable publishing. I do hope to fix that problem, though...

 

[amita]

I only brew BIAB. 'Mixed methods' refers to how I fuel the boil: electric for big batches and (stovetop) gas for small batches. I also usually NoChill big batches and kitchen sink dunkchill small batches. I usually naturally carbonate, but sometimes the devil makes me force-carbonate.

Being a Man Of Science, I don't have enough brews under my belt to draw any conclusions that I am comfortable publishing. I do hope to fix that problem, though...

looking forward to hear from you when you are ready to share and contribute to get more insight into BIAB brewing,

thanks , amita

 

[Thirsty Boy]

. . . so how about brewing your medal winning brew( congratulations by the way!) 2 ways?side bu side, same ingredients just different methods and keep us informed of you findings??
that would be much aprreciated. . . .

Thanks

That experiment might be valid, but all I have to do is work out how to brew it consistently via ANY method first. I've brewed it 4 times - 1 was a sink job because I accidentally contaminated my fermentor with non-food grade silicone sealant, one was the "I like this beer"batch, the next was the Mash Paddle brew, the last was the one I have in the ferm fridge now... not so good, my mash stuck like glue, I couldn't do the steps properly and ended up doing an impromptu triple decoction. It hasn't' worked out fantastically and the FG is too high for my liking.

So - I have managed a 50% strike rate with this recipe on a "normal" system and have yet to brew any brew exactly the same twice via any method at all. I personally don't believe that side by sides prove anything at all if the beer is brewed on different systems or by different brewers.

Spills, Velophile and I tried to brew the same beer on our three different systems.. same ingredients, same mash schedule/temps, same boil and hopping regime - tried for the same fermentation temps. Three different beers. Mine and Spills were similar, but thats being nice about it, Velophile's was a completely different beer. Same recipe though.

The recipe isn't "proven" or "award winning" - the combination of the recipe, the system and the brewer is what achieves those things. eg: If your system always gives a slightly higher FG than an "award winning" recipe says it should achieve.. that makes neither the recipe or your system bad, it just means that you need to compensate by altering one of the two sets of variables.

A good recipe is only good if it makes good beer on your system... anything else is meaningless.

Having said all that, I use my small batch BIAB as my pilot system for trying out new beers, new styles and new recipes... the results aren't particularly different when I translate them to my HERMS but they aren't the same either.

Brew many times... thats the answer

Thirsty

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Having said all that, I use my small batch BIAB as my pilot system for trying out new beers, new styles and new recipes... the results aren't particularly different when I translate them to my HERMS but they aren't the same either.

And yet, I am still trying to achieve the same result between my two BIAB systems. Brew the same recipe on the two and you get different beers. When I discovered this, I was initially very pleased because I brewed a nice beer, then grew disappointed with the realisation that I had to brew lots more to understand where the differences were coming from...

 

[amita]

Thanks

That experiment might be valid, but all I have to do is work out how to brew it consistently via ANY method first. I've brewed it 4 times - 1 was a sink job because I accidentally contaminated my fermentor with non-food grade silicone sealant, one was the "I like this beer"batch, the next was the Mash Paddle brew, the last was the one I have in the ferm fridge now... not so good, my mash stuck like glue, I couldn't do the steps properly and ended up doing an impromptu triple decoction. It hasn't' worked out fantastically and the FG is too high for my liking.

So - I have managed a 50% strike rate with this recipe on a "normal" system and have yet to brew any brew exactly the same twice via any method at all. I personally don't believe that side by sides prove anything at all if the beer is brewed on different systems or by different brewers.

Spills, Velophile and I tried to brew the same beer on our three different systems.. same ingredients, same mash schedule/temps, same boil and hopping regime - tried for the same fermentation temps. Three different beers. Mine and Spills were similar, but thats being nice about it, Velophile's was a completely different beer. Same recipe though.

The recipe isn't "proven" or "award winning" - the combination of the recipe, the system and the brewer is what achieves those things. eg: If your system always gives a slightly higher FG than an "award winning" recipe says it should achieve.. that makes neither the recipe or your system bad, it just means that you need to compensate by altering one of the two sets of variables.

A good recipe is only good if it makes good beer on your system... anything else is meaningless.

Having said all that, I use my small batch BIAB as my pilot system for trying out new beers, new styles and new recipes... the results aren't particularly different when I translate them to my HERMS but they aren't the same either.

Brew many times... thats the answer

Thirsty

thanks thirsty ,
I agree with the point you are making with the same ingr.diff system,I did an IAP using the recipe and method from the Brew Your Own plc, i also did it using a mini mash and the extracts to my own scedule and ended up with two totally different beers.
so it does come down to the brewers abilities to create a beer that he or she likes and if it is within the guidlines it might be a winner,regardless of the way its been brewed,so why are some people against the BIAB method?
just curious,

thanks amita and yes Ill be brewing many times with pleasure

 

[amita]

And yet, I am still trying to achieve the same result between my two BIAB systems. Brew the same recipe on the two and you get different beers. When I discovered this, I was initially very pleased because I brewed a nice beer, then grew disappointed with the realisation that I had to brew lots more to understand where the differences were coming from...

sorry spills, forgot to include your name in my reply adressed to thirsty,
cheers amita

 

[mikelinz]

Have just done my first BIAB & No chill (in the fermenter now). I have a few questions and was wondering if this was the best place to ask or should I be using a different thread. Also i stumbled across a thread to BIAB recipes and can't find it again. anyone got the link.

rgds mike

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Have just done my first BIAB & No chill (in the fermenter now). I have a few questions and was wondering if this was the best place to ask or should I be using a different thread. Also i stumbled across a thread to BIAB recipes and can't find it again. anyone got the link.

rgds mike

I don't think it matters whether you post here or in another thread, but if you want a definitive answer, start a new thread. Just post away!

The recipes don't change between multi-vessel and single-vessel brewing systems. If you like the look of a recipe, Bag It!

Remember that the business part of BIAB is wort preparation. Of the entire process (Readers Digest Version), ie: coaxing enzymes to convert starches to sugars then getting them into solution away from the cattle fodder, adding hops for flavour and bitterness and boiling like crazy to remove unwanted compounds and excess water, the only bit that is different between BIAB and traditional HB methodology is the enzyme/starch/sugar/cattle bit. Otherwise it is exactly the same and doesn't affect the recipe at all.

 

[mikelinz]

Thanks spills

Ist BIAB (only 2nd AG) Went well I think. Used the German black beer recipe from here . A couple of times the heat got away on me up to 70.2, used ice to bring it back down (decided pre boil a bit of ice wouldn't hurt). The pre boil SG was 1030 (how do I work out what it should be) and post boil was 1044 which is a bit short of the target 1055. So i wonder if it was the fact that the wort got too hot or did i just not boil hot/long enough or did I start with too much water. My initial volume was 33l in a converted keg, volume to cube 25.5 lost 2.5 in trub (via filter) prior to fermenter. So finish volume was 23L which should be about right to go into my 19L keg altho I might have to bottle a litre or two I guess. So what should I do to make it better next time, more boiling, less water or is it all about right??? Also I keep reading about efficiency - how do I work this out based on my results.

I have been to several club AG brew days and have tried an AG in a cooler (found sparging a pain) so all in all I am very happy with the BIAB process.

rgds mike

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

A couple of times the heat got away on me up to 70.2, used ice to bring it back down (decided pre boil a bit of ice wouldn't hurt).

If you are throwing more heat at it during the mash, it is really important to ensure the mix is being stirred really well while the heat is on and to keep it close to what you are aiming for. If you get it too hot, you could end up killing off some of the enzymes which are converting starch to sugar and getting a result you don't want.

The pre boil SG was 1030 (how do I work out what it should be) and post boil was 1044 which is a bit short of the target 1055. So i wonder if it was the fact that the wort got too hot or did i just not boil hot/long enough or did I start with too much water. My initial volume was 33l in a converted keg, volume to cube 25.5 lost 2.5 in trub (via filter) prior to fermenter. So finish volume was 23L which should be about right to go into my 19L keg altho I might have to bottle a litre or two I guess. So what should I do to make it better next time, more boiling, less water or is it all about right???

If you're going to do more of this, I recommend getting some computer software to help with this sort of calculation. The calculations aren't difficult and some people just do them, but I don't bother and just plug the numbers into the software and focus on the stirring and drinking and important stuff like that.

It sounds to me like you didn't extract as much sugar from the grain as you could have, but I wouldn't bother too much about that on your first shot. The question around quantity of water, boil length and stuff will get all sorts of different answers from different people, but I reckon it is primarily a matter of getting used to your kit and refining your process. The volume amounts sound to me like they are within coo-ee of what I get and so I wouldn't be worrying too much about that until you are more comfortable with what you're doing.

Also I keep reading about efficiency - how do I work this out based on my results.

Again, this is something I get from my software, but there are methods around that allow you to work it out manually. I think Mr Palmer details it in http://www.howtobrew.com/ It also depends on whether you're interested in how much sugar you extracted from your grain or in the total end-to-end efficiency of your brewhouse, which includes everything from the grain you spilled on the floor as you tried to get it into your mashtun/baggie through to the few centilitres you threw away when you were bottling.

In one sense, it is only of academic value or akin to comparing the top speed of motor vehicles when the legal speed limit is about half what yours can do. Very, very important to people who buy their grain by the cubic kilometre, but less so to the likes of you and me.

In short, I think that if you focus on getting a good solid mashing environment happening, you will see an improvement in extraction efficiency and another again if you try a mash-out, which is where you raise the temperature of your mash by 10 degrees or so at the end of the mash, but before you lift the bag, to help the sugars fall out of your grain.

 

[kieran]

Stating the bleeding obvious, I guess, is that it just comes down to consistency in absolutely everything. This goes to the yeast pitch rate, the age of the yeast prior to pitching - yeast log phase, fermentation temperature, mash temp, grain batch/age, milling (grind, and timing between milling and mash, hop alpha acids, quality variations between crops, then the obvious like timing (mash, boil, fermentation, conditioning, etc.) then serving,... ad nauseum.
There are ways to reduce this, and I guess as a homebrewer we just need to minimise the inconsistencies that we introduce - as we can't remove everything without some serious investment. This goes for All grain and BIAB.

However, some of the great pleasures that I've gotten out of homebrewing, come from the mistakes I've made. So I don't think that I'd ever want the 'easy path' even if it were available.. because I've made some brilliant beers that I've really enjoyed drinking (I'm thinking an accidental variation of one of Charlie Papazian's Lager recipes I once brewed to celebrate the birth of my beautiful little daughter).

 

[jordzan]

gday

im only fairly new to extract brewing but after reading this thread which is awsome thank you thank you, im very keen to get into all grain asap. ive found a bit of kit
that i like, aTobin 40 Litre Urn, Thermostat Control. i was hoping to get some opinions on using this bit of kit for Biab brewing if possible. Seems like it would work
great for diffrent temps etc, save some sanitising, gas bottles etc.

Cheers for any help guy's.

Spec's
Item No: T40-T

[size=-1]
[/size][size=-1]Representative image only.[/size]​

Tobin 40 Litre Urn, Thermostat Control

Trade Price: A$339.00 Each
(Price includes 10% GST)

Features
* Polished Stainless Steel, all welded construction.
* All edges are rolled for extra strength.
* Thermostatically controlled for adjustment through to boiling point.
* Protection against boiling dry.
* Non drip tap and insulated handles.
* Indicator light.
* Water Gauge glass
* Element wattage 3000W
* Made in Australia

Approximately 175 to 200 cups
Size: 550mm high x 360mm diameter
Weight: 7.0Kg.