A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Oh, and to increase my efficiency, I nicked the missus pasta pot.

I plonked the bag in it, put my thick, black manly gloves on and punched/squeezed it a little. Then poured a couple of litres of hot water in several doses over and squeezed it each time.

After trying to have someone (me) hold the bag up last time and someone else (fellow brewer) squeeze it and then plonk into a bucket per Nick JD's method, I found this considerably easier and less arm-work. And the increase in efficiency spoke volumes both for 9L and 22L batches.

I strongly recommend anyone who has one of these pasta strainer pots (ours is a cheapie and about 9L in volume), to use this. It cuts down the manual labour and does really well in efficiency.

 

[barneyb]

Don't get too hung up on the figures. There are a heap of things that can go wrong there. If you are BIABing well and by some miracle have an accurate/average hydrometer, you should be nearing 80% on your pre or post-boil efficiency. Your figs are fine and the beer will taste great.

Yeesh, I've put down 2 BIABs the the best efficiency I got was ~65% (bit less I think actually). So unless the markings on my Coopers fermenter is waaay off, or my thermometer isn't properly calibrated (I tested it and it hit 100C right when my pot started boiling), it isn't necessarily that easy to get good efficiency when you start out BIAB.

Or maybe I'm missing a few brain cells. :blink:

 

[felten]

I'm 2 full sized BIAB brews in so far and both ~80% efficiency at the end of the boil, brewhouse efficiency is probably around 70%.

A thermometer that is accurate at 100c might not necessarily be accurate at mash temps (maybe), you could try using a few different thermometers and see how it goes. Temp is just one of a few factors that could affect efficiency, others are pH, crush, time spent mashing, including a mashout + stir at the end, and a few others. I was just brushing up on this article on braukaiser, http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/U...ding_Efficiency the "what affects conversion efficiency" is a good read.

 

[katzke]

I'm 2 full sized BIAB brews in so far and both ~80% efficiency at the end of the boil, brewhouse efficiency is probably around 70%.

A thermometer that is accurate at 100c might not necessarily be accurate at mash temps (maybe), you could try using a few different thermometers and see how it goes. Temp is just one of a few factors that could affect efficiency, others are pH, crush, time spent mashing, including a mashout + stir at the end, and a few others. I was just brushing up on this article on braukaiser, http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/U...ding_Efficiency the "what affects conversion efficiency" is a good read.

First is the previous poster may be missing a few brain cells. He asked.

Second is I agree with you. If you follow the rules of BIAB and dont mess with them it works wonders. I have my software set to 75% and get close. Sometimes high and sometimes low.

I can only say that I disagree with your numbers. Brewhouse efficiency in the 60s is normal if a brewer is honest. That includes losses to trub and hops in the kettle or what you put in the fermentor. I actually think on the terms of total brewery efficiency and that includes all looses from the grain to the glass.

Efficiency is a funny number and it all depends on how and when you measure it. I have said before I do not care what the efficiency is when you give me a recipe. Just give me a grain bill and hop schedule for a final volume and any other additions. Include the original gravity and final gravity. If you give expected IBUs that helps. I can figure what I need to make a similar recipe on my system with less or more beer in the end.

 

[felten]

Actually you are probably right about the brewhouse efficiency, I was just going off what beersmith gave me at the time.

edit: I was just reading this recent presentation for the NHC on braukaiser and it mentions that no sparge, thin mashes, can create higher quality wort. I don't think that was brought up earlier in the thread? maybe it was and I missed it, very interesting anyway.

 

[aussiechucka]

I have just done my first AG. Trying replicate a Mexican Dark beer. Bohemia obscura. After months of reading through this thread and the ag for 30 bucks, I finally had the gear ready and the knowledge to give it a go. So just would like to say thanks for all the info and can't wait to bottle and drink. Will be a sometime conditioning before I do that so hopefully all turns out OK.
Here is the link for the recipe, Something different I think. Bohemia Del Chucka

Thanks agin for all the info
Aussiechucka :beer:

 

[PistolPatch]

Yeesh, I've put down 2 BIABs the the best efficiency I got was ~65% (bit less I think actually). So unless the markings on my Coopers fermenter is waaay off, or my thermometer isn't properly calibrated (I tested it and it hit 100C right when my pot started boiling), it isn't necessarily that easy to get good efficiency when you start out BIAB.

Or maybe I'm missing a few brain cells. :blink:

How you doing barney ,

I saw your post the other day and made a note to reply to it. 'scuse the delay.

When I saw your 65% I immediately thought that you are measuring efficiency into fermenter. Your comment re markings on the Coopers fermenter confirmed this.

65% efficiency "into fermenter" is perfectly fine. Most brewers, when quoting efficiency figures, do not define which efficiency figure they are quoting. Most though, will be quoting their efficiency "into the kettle" or their efficiency "post-boil." These two should theoretically be the same but on average, aren't. On the figures I have collected here that other brewers have kindly provided...

Efficiency into Fermenter is approximately 10% lower than than post-boil efficiency which in, turn is about 2.5% less than efficiency into the kettle.

So, your efficiencies are probably 65%, 75% or 77.5% depending on which one you you want to quote.

Have a read of this post. I wrote it a few weeks ago but it will give you a bit more detail on the above and hopefully stop you thinking you are doing something wrong . If you investigate the links contained in that post that include spreadsheets and calculators, I think you will gain a very good understanding of efficiency. Allow some time to relax and read them over a few beers - don't race through them otherwise only a tad of the information will sink in.

You are not missing any brain cells
Pat

 

[PistolPatch]

Another recent convert to AG via BIAB.

I just bottled a second batch last night - it was only a 9L batch. I do the 22L batches as quaffers and 9L to experiment and have some (more) fun.

The first batch I did was a balls up. Efficiency was poor, but (from drinking the non-conditioned wort) that it will still turn out okay and well drinkable.

Congratulations to you LRG :icon_cheers:,

Don't trust your own figures on a single brew!!! You are just like me when I started AGing .

Have a read through my post above. I think if you have the patience to read it and follow its links, you might be able to speed up the process of learning what figures to regard and which ones to disregard. You should never trust the results of a single brew. The links etc will explain why.

The basic rule I have come to is that if you can get all the water required for your brew into the kettle, it is not appropriate to sparge*. Those doing mini-BIABs and those doing double-batches in small kettles, depending on volumes, will have to sparge.

The reason I say this is that I brew in large kettles and notice no difference, collected over several brews, between double-batches and single batches as I can fit almost all the water required in my kettle for a double batch. It is very important not to jump to conclusions from a single brew. I know this because I have did it - lol!

*Brewers should be very confident in full-volume mashes and I'll write a tad more on this in my next post which is a reply to felten.

LRG, you are an accountant so I am hoping that you will read what I have asked above and then understand the myriad of reasons why single brews cannot be relied upon as well as the reason why brewing enough to collect reliable averages is of some importance.

Cheers and congratulations again,
Pat

 

[PistolPatch]

I'm 2 full sized BIAB brews in so far and both ~80% efficiency at the end of the boil, brewhouse efficiency is probably around 70%.

A thermometer that is accurate at 100c might not necessarily be accurate at mash temps (maybe), you could try using a few different thermometers and see how it goes. Temp is just one of a few factors that could affect efficiency, others are pH, crush, time spent mashing, including a mashout + stir at the end, and a few others. I was just brushing up on this article on braukaiser, http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/U...ding_Efficiency the "what affects conversion efficiency" is a good read.

Great post felten and congratulations on your going all-grain. Your figures and advice above are very pleasing to see. You have done very well :super:.

The link you gave in your immediate post above (not the one in the quote above) is an excellent one that was originally supplied by matti I think and that I have shamelessly used since without giving him credit for finding it. It is one of the most sensible links you will find on mash thicknesses and backs up all the figures others have provided me as well as my own personal experience.

People who read and are able to understand that link should feel very confident about BIAB.

One important thing though, whilst BIAB is "no sparge" brewing, it is not the "no sparge" brewing method commonly referred to which will give you much lower efficiency. This is the reason why I call BIAB "full-volume" mashing. "No sparge" brewing, the one that gives low efficiency, only allows about a third of water used to ever contact the grain. BIAB allows 3/3rds (all) the water to contact the grain for the full mash period. No other method does this.

Cheers to you felten,
Pat

 

[PistolPatch]

I have just done my first AG. Trying replicate a Mexican Dark beer. Bohemia obscura. After months of reading through this thread and the ag for 30 bucks, I finally had the gear ready and the knowledge to give it a go. So just would like to say thanks for all the info and can't wait to bottle and drink. Will be a sometime conditioning before I do that so hopefully all turns out OK.
Here is the link for the recipe, Something different I think. Bohemia Del Chucka

Thanks agin for all the info
Aussiechucka :beer:

And my last post of the night goes to you Aussiechucka .

Well done mate and sorry I can't critique your recipe. I steal all mine from brewers who have the knack of recipe formulation - God bless 'em .

With my limited knowledge of recipes etc, I would say one thing though with lagers and that is, taste a bottle every few weeks / month and slow this down as time goes on if you have the patience. The best beer I have had in my life was a pilsner that Gryphon Brewing gave me. He gave me 6 bottles and I had one every couple of months. The last bottle I had was astounding for me and was totally different from the ones I had before which were fine but not brilliant. I capped that last bottle and drank it over a few days to make sure it was as brilliant as I originally thought.

If you like lagers but want to drink them within a month, brew LloydieP's Krispy Kolsch. It is one of the few beers that have a permanent place on my taps. Yum!

All the best Aussiechucka,
Pat

 

[RdeVjun]

One important thing though, whilst BIAB is "no sparge" brewing, it is not the "no sparge" brewing method commonly referred to which will give you much lower efficiency. This is the reason why I call BIAB "full-volume" mashing. "No sparge" brewing, the one that gives low efficiency, only allows about a third of water used to ever contact the grain. BIAB allows 3/3rds (all) the water to contact the grain for the full mash period. No other method does this.

Point of order, PP! One flavour of BIAB is no- sparge, another is not- the 'sparged BIAB', which is common amongst us stove- top BIABers using a 19L stockpot, a regular/ heavier grain bill and post- boil dilution. Sparging a BIAB happens quite a bit, but usually only becomes necessary if mash tun/ kettle volume is less than the brew length.

I myself have found some fairly respectable efficiencies with sparged BIAB, but I have had the same experience with no- sparge too. Best of both worlds with BIAB, if you want it that is! :icon_cheers:

 

[PistolPatch]

Point of order, PP! One flavour of BIAB is no- sparge, another is not- the 'sparged BIAB', which is common amongst us stove- top BIABers using a 19L stockpot, a regular/ heavier grain bill and post- boil dilution. Sparging a BIAB happens quite a bit, but usually only becomes necessary if mash tun/ kettle volume is less than the brew length.

I myself have found some fairly respectable efficiencies with sparged BIAB, but I have had the same experience with no- sparge too. Best of both worlds with BIAB, if you want it that is! :icon_cheers:

LOL Ralph .

All the terminology can be very confusing. Re-read my post above carefully on what no-sparge really means. BIAB is never no-sparge brewing in the old brewing terms.

Rewind a bit me old mate as it is very important for new AG searchers of the internet to understand that if you BIAB but don't rinse (sparge) your grain you are still not no-sparge brewing.

This confusion of terminology has lead many a brewer to think that full-volume BIABing leads to lower efficiency whereas the truth is the opposite. See felten's last link above.

We need to develop a new terminology.

I have no easy answers for now apart from stressing that any method of BIAB is NOT related to the old term of no-sparge brewing!

I hope that I have made this clear. You with me now Ralph? I know it is all very confusing so let me know if my explanations are still not clear enough mate and I'll have another crack at it on the weekend.

Spot ya mate,
Pat

 

[Cocko]

And my last post of the night goes to you Aussiechucka .

Pat

Pat

Ok, the devils in the detail! :lol:

Sorry mate... bored is all!

 

[RdeVjun]

LOL Ralph .

All the terminology can be very confusing. Re-read my post above carefully on what no-sparge really means. BIAB is never no-sparge brewing in the old brewing terms.

Rewind a bit me old mate as it is very important for new AG searchers of the internet to understand that if you BIAB but don't rinse (sparge) your grain you are still not no-sparge brewing.

This confusion of terminology has lead many a brewer to think that full-volume BIABing leads to lower efficiency whereas the truth is the opposite. See felten's last link above.

We need to develop a new terminology.

I have no easy answers for now apart from stressing that any method of BIAB is NOT related to the old term of no-sparge brewing!

I hope that I have made this clear. You with me now Ralph? I know it is all very confusing so let me know if my explanations are still not clear enough mate and I'll have another crack at it on the weekend.

Spot ya mate,
Pat

Yeah spot ya PP, 100%! A modernised lexicon (and a briefer thread ) would straighten much of it out, for sure.

Too cross- eyed for now though! (All this damn football that must be watched!)

 

[barneyb]

How you doing barney ,

Thanks for all the info, very encouraging. I will try and get my samples pre-boil from now on, just gotta get a metal ruler and figure out the volumes of my pot.

For what its worth I had a sample of my first AG (only 3 weeks in the bottle) and can't believe how good it is already. There is something I can't put my finger on...the body perhaps? Something great anyway! I'm going to bottle my current brew and put down another ASAP!

 

[aussiechucka]

Thanks Pistol Pete
I am not really worried about waiting for the beer to mature. I have had beers when doing kit beers sitting for a year or so and yes they always taste better. My next AG will be a full 20 litre batch. One of Dr smurto but with a change in hops to try to clone a Bombadier. cheers for all the help on the site, all the great ideas have helped me to work out a few things to do with every aspect of brewing and AG. :beer:

 

[sandjeep457]

I tried my first BIAB last week and it all went to plan - well pppp pete's plan anyway, except that the bag I bought really wasn't that porous.
It was a bit like a pillow slip I reckon - it was definitely Polyester Swiss Voile and I got it at Spotlight, but it really did not drain that well.
I had to squeeze the bag to get the water out - it barely dripped on its own accord - and it wasn't the grain stopping it.

I have read from others that the Wort pours out fairly easily - maybe there are different types of Swiss Voille or something ?

any ideas ?

Sandy.

 

[big_dazza27]

I tried my first BIAB last week and it all went to plan - well pppp pete's plan anyway, except that the bag I bought really wasn't that porous.
It was a bit like a pillow slip I reckon - it was definitely Polyester Swiss Voile and I got it at Spotlight, but it really did not drain that well.
I had to squeeze the bag to get the water out - it barely dripped on its own accord - and it wasn't the grain stopping it.

I have read from others that the Wort pours out fairly easily - maybe there are different types of Swiss Voille or something ?

any ideas ?

Sandy.

How fine was your grain crushed? I've been told that sometimes grain crushed too fine can affect how much wort you get out of the bag.

 

[sandjeep457]

How fine was your grain crushed? I've been told that sometimes grain crushed too fine can affect how much wort you get out of the bag.

Ahhh, very very fine - I used my Sunbean coffee grinder. I thought I would get better efficiency that way.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

can you see through that fabric - the correct stuff is less like a pillowcase and more like a pair of stockings. Laying a piece over the newspaper should present you with no difficulties reading said paper. Look at it under a magnifying glass. Fine mesh - more space than thread. Try it with some plain water - plain water should fall through completely without resistance. Line a colander with it... if you are able to fill the colander with water at all... not the right stuff.

If it is the right stuff - then look to your crush. If you go berserk and grind the grain completely to flour... then its gonna take a while to drain out. The more "chunks" the faster the drain.