A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[barneyb]

1st - the conversion tables work like absolute crap at high temperatures. They are fine for adjusting between 25 and the calibration temp of your hydrometer... but all the ones I have used are shitty when trying to convert from mash temp.

I used beersmith to calculate it but I assume it would use the same crappy tables.

Throwing your numbers into pro-mash... (lets assume your fermenter is right)

You had 5.5L of 1.064 wort from 2.2kg of grain. Thats an efficiency of about 55% ... which is pretty bad for BIAB. So I suspect that your mash didn't go so well, and also that you have made a few measurement errors.

Yeech that is bad. Seeing as we don't have a accurate volume pre-boil, can we still measure post-boil like this? Or is it off a bit?

I can see no particular reason why... your mash temp would have been 65-66 which is a little on the low side but perfectly OK, you said you mashed out (actually you said 66 but I assume a typo and you meant 76) - you even sparged a little. Nothing wrong there at all.

Ok I have to admit I got my terminology a bit wrong. For some reason I thought mash out was the temp that you finish your mash at, I didn't actually "mash out", 66C was the temp the wort was as after 1 hour. For these small batches what strike temp would you suggest? Should I start a few degrees higher?

*Did you stir well?? Both when you first put in the grain, while you were raising to mash out and before you pulled out the bag?? If not, you should.

I stirred a bit when I put the grain in but not when I pulled the bag out. I could have probably stirred a bit better too, I was paranoid about losing temp.

*If you are going to sparge... then 1L is a silly amount. If you are gonna do it, do it with a decent amount. I suggest at least twice as much water as grain, so 2.2kg of grain... 4.4L of sparge water and I would see no problem at all with sparging with up to 1/2 your total water quotient

When I sparged I was just dunking the grain into the bucket like a tea bag, is that ok?

That seems like a long list of things you did "wrong" but not really, you got it almost completely right - aside from a few minor things, your process was just fine. Tweak a few of the little things I have pointed out, have another crack - and things will get more predictable and easier within a few brews.

Well done on the first brew - You wont even notice the little bit of extract. I'm sure it will turn out well. Hope I have been a little helpful.

Ill definitely be having another crack this weekend, I never expected it do go perfectly the first time but I got the OG where I wanted it in the end so it shouldn't turn out a complete disaster (although I have some concerns about my hop utilization but that's another story). Plus I bought 12.5kg of pilsner grain that needs to be used! Plus plus there is something about making the beer from the grains which seems more..authentic?

You have been more than a little helpful, thanks for all the info (including the stuff I didn't quote). Ill be spending tonight calibrating all my equipment. Hopefully between my tea kettle and bucket (it has litre markings) I can find some accuracy. Cheers. :icon_chickcheers:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Yeech that is bad. Seeing as we don't have a accurate volume pre-boil, can we still measure post-boil like this? Or is it off a bit?

Yep - the amount of sugar is the same pre and post boil. Its a function of Specific Gravity x volume, no matter what stage you are up to


Ok I have to admit I got my terminology a bit wrong. For some reason I thought mash out was the temp that you finish your mash at, I didn't actually "mash out", 66C was the temp the wort was as after 1 hour. For these small batches what strike temp would you suggest? Should I start a few degrees higher?

No problems there then - If you started with 70 water that would give you an initial mash temp of 65-66... and thats where you finished. Perfectly good. You held temperature well and with those temps should have had no conversion problems. I think that an actual mashout is important for BIAB - ie you raise your temperature after the main mash period is over, up to 74-78C. In my experience this will significantly increase your efficiency and will also help your beers to not be too dry.. which I find is a mild issue with BIAB beers. You put on your heat and stir stir stir while constantly taking temperature readings. I suggest you try to take about 10 minutes to raise your temperature up to 76C - let it rest there for a few minutes and then pull out your bag. Don't mess with your strike temps yet though - yours were perhaps a degree or two lower than I would use, but you have to see how things work out on your individual system. Just use the temperatures that whatever recipe you are working off suggests for now.


I stirred a bit when I put the grain in but not when I pulled the bag out. I could have probably stirred a bit better too, I was paranoid about losing temp.

One of the beauties of BIAB - you can directly heat your mash. Stir it up well when you first mash in, let it rest for 5 minutes and stir again, taking a temperature this time. Add heat if you need to (you need to stir constantly whenever you have your heat on) - You can check temp a couple/few times during the mash if you want to, stirring and adding eat as required - Stirring as you raise to the mashout temp does many good things - Stirring before you pull out the bag distributes the sugars evenly rather than leaving them concentrated in and around the grains.


When I sparged I was just dunking the grain into the bucket like a tea bag, is that ok?

I don't think so. I do think that dunking in a bucket/pot is the best/easiest way to sparge a BIAB - but just dipping it in some water isn't going to do a lot. You need to get it in a decent amount of water, stir it around, poke it, prod it, mix it up. Think of it like washing a jumper and trying to rinse out the soap... if you shoved a soapy jumper in a bag and just dipped the bag in 1L of water... how much of the soap do you think would come out?? But if you dip it in 5 or 6L of water and stir it around... then pull it out and give it a squeeze??? Sparging is just rinsing grain; and rinsing is rinsing - if it wouldn't work on a bag of soapy socks, it wont work on a bag of grain.


Ill definitely be having another crack this weekend, I never expected it do go perfectly the first time but I got the OG where I wanted it in the end so it shouldn't turn out a complete disaster (although I have some concerns about my hop utilization but that's another story). Plus I bought 12.5kg of pilsner grain that needs to be used! Plus plus there is something about making the beer from the grains which seems more..authentic?

You have been more than a little helpful, thanks for all the info (including the stuff I didn't quote). Ill be spending tonight calibrating all my equipment. Hopefully between my tea kettle and bucket (it has litre markings) I can find some accuracy. Cheers. :icon_chickcheers:

glad to be of service - 2 more brews and I bet you are hitting your numbers fairly close by then.

TB

 

[barneyb]

Ah some more great advice. Thanks again, I wish Saturday would come sooner!

 

[PistolPatch]

Please excuse my belated congratulations to nikgr, Peterhop, marksy and barneyb on your first BIABs. I am amazed that some of you guys actually read through this whole thread!!! (Great pics too thanks nik.)

Would have said congratulations earlier but I was overseas drinking Bavarian pilzners for a month! Also had a Munich Dunkell from the oldest abbey in the world still brewing it. To be quite honest, it was... spectacular!!! The biggest quandary I had overseas was trying to work out whether or not to bring bottles back from the Weltenberg Abbey. Unfortunately, I left all bottles with my brother-in-law .

I see the old efficiency problem has come up again for some of you and it looks as though you have been getting well looked after. Don't worry about efficiency too much - see here and here.

This trip overseas has confirmed something for me - brewing great beers is simple. Simple sound practices, quality ingredients and recipes are the true keys and that is it.

Spot,
Pat

 

[Phoney]

Has anyone come up with any smarter method of bag squeezing other than using your hands + gloves?

Im thinking of experimenting using either ratchet straps or perhaps a modified utility clamp with two boards of ply to sandwich the bag together to effortlessly squeeze that liquor out of there..

 

[katzke]

Has anyone come up with any smarter method of bag squeezing other than using your hands + gloves?

Im thinking of experimenting using either ratchet straps or perhaps a modified utility clamp with two boards of ply to sandwich the bag together to effortlessly squeeze that liquor out of there..

Too much work for the return. I use the twist method while in the pot and then hang to drain. I have a pole so I can let it drain into the kettle while it is coming up to boil. I have left it drain after that in a bucket and even given the cool bag a good squeeze. I usually do not get enough wort in the bucket to make it worth messing with.

The harder you squeeze the more gunk you get in your wort. I am not any more heat tolerant then any other guy I know and have never used gloves.

Remember BIAB is supposed to be easy. I may use a touch more grain then a traditional brewer. Can not say for sure, as I do not swap recipes. My mash efficiency is in the mid 70s so I must be doing OK.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

When squeezing, I use a couple of pot lids - only because they are there and I prefer it to wringing the bag. If I can't find the pot lids in the ever-growing pile of stuff in my brewery I will just use my Bare Hands. I will give it a few squeezes over the period - whatever is out of the bag when the boil starts is pretty much what is going to come out.

I will usually only DunkSparge(tm) when I'm doing a big batch of a big beer or for some other (usually BS) reason.

I can say with a great deal of certainty that making your brewday easier by doing it The One True Way is worth whatever the extra few grains of malt is going to cost you. A skyhook (or in my case a small gantry crane with a rope ratchet) is probably the only thing I would recommend over and above the bare minimum equipment to make for the perfect brewday.

Having said all that, the entire process as documented and all the good and bad extensions have come about as a result of experimenting and cussing, so if that is your thing, goforit.

 

[MarkBastard]

I keep forgetting to, but I'm going to get a cake rack and put that in the bottom of my 19L pot, and just chuck the bag on top and let it drain that way.

ie, not gunna even squeeze.

Just let it drain while you're ramping up to boiling.

I'm gunna give it a go anyway, see how it works out. A no squeeze / no rope BIAB would be so much easier.

 

[Phoney]

Fair enough, in that case I wont bother. I'll continue with the bit of a squeeze and hang/drip method

 

[Ross]

I keep forgetting to, but I'm going to get a cake rack and put that in the bottom of my 19L pot, and just chuck the bag on top and let it drain that way.

ie, not gunna even squeeze.

Just let it drain while you're ramping up to boiling.

I'm gunna give it a go anyway, see how it works out. A no squeeze / no rope BIAB would be so much easier.

Or you could put your cake rack against the drain hole of an esky (assuming you own one), mash in your bag in the esky, recirculate until clear & drain into your urn while bringing to the boil.

Seriously, if you've out grown the simplicity of biab in a one vessel set up, do yourself a favour and consider mashing/sparging in the traditional manner.

cheers Ross

Edit: Not having a go at BIAB, as we recommend it here in the shop all the time to get people into AG.

 

[katzke]

Or you could put your cake rack against the drain hole of an esky (assuming you own one), mash in your bag in the esky, recirculate until clear & drain into your urn while bringing to the boil.

Seriously, if you've out grown the simplicity of biab in a one vessel set up, do yourself a favour and consider mashing/sparging in the traditional manner.

cheers Ross

Edit: Not having a go at BIAB, as we recommend it here in the shop all the time to get people into AG.

OK, will take the bait.

What is the advantage to converting from BIAB to a traditional multi vessel system for the average brewer?

Notice I said the average brewer.

Even non-average brews can be done with BIAB. The only technique I have not entirely figured out would be first wort hopping. I have mash hopped and brew quite a few wheat beers and Wits with no additional messing about with rice gulls. See no reason to make the expensive and time consuming conversion to a multi-vessel system.

Or was that your point?

 

[katzke]

All this talk lately about sparging for a little extra sugar and ways to drain the bag for that same little extra sugar has me thinking.

If I were going to make any change to the basic BIAB setup or method, I would look at the leftovers in the kettle as a source of good quality sugar.

We recommend a cake rack to keep from burning the bag. A nice false bottom with a hop/filter screen like in a multi vessel boil kettle include a plate chiller and a tap on the kettle would also be nice. I live in the land of endless water so use an immersion chiller then use my racking cane to transfer the cooled wort form my kettle to the fermentor. I leave quite a bit of wort in with the hops and break. More then could be gained by getting every last drop from the bag. After all we are getting more from the grain then those that use a mash tun. The only difference I see is what I leave behind in my boil kettle as compared to the fancy mutli-vessel systems with false bottoms or hop screens.

 

[Ross]

Katzke,

No baiting intended... i was simply stating that if you are going to use additional vessels to drop your bag into & don't like lifting/hanging/dripping, why not mash in the traditional manner. The whole concept of BIAB is supposed to simplicity & using minimum equipment.

The ability to recirculate & get a clear wort as well as increased efficiency from not doing a single flood sparge is preferrable in my opinion, but it's certainly not essential for making good beer.


cheers Ross

FYI Pistolpatch & myself were 2 of the earliest pioneers of BIAB, as we tried to use as small a thumbprint as possible for brewing in his 1 bed apartment - Fun days

 

[argon]

OK, will take the bait.

What is the advantage to converting from BIAB to a traditional multi vessel system for the average brewer?

Notice I said the average brewer.

Even non-average brews can be done with BIAB. The only technique I have not entirely figured out would be first wort hopping. I have mash hopped and brew quite a few wheat beers and Wits with no additional messing about with rice gulls. See no reason to make the expensive and time consuming conversion to a multi-vessel system.

Or was that your point?

I think for me the conversion over to traditional AG would be to do double batches. I currently use my esky to mash out. That is fill with 20L at mash out temp, dunk sparge, stir, drain etc. This helps due to the limitation in size of my mash tun/kettle. So that way i'm not really doing the "traditional BIAB" anyway. The step to 2 or 3V traditional AG wouldn't be too different.

When doing single batches, which i don't do anymore, i just use the simplified version of BIAB... no faffing about at all.

But if i was really serious about simplifying double batches i'd probably just go and buy a bigger mash tun/kettle and stick with BIAB anyway. I have a 50L Keggle that handles double batches ok with a bit of calculation and using an esky. i would imagine a 100L or even 70L pot, i'd do doubles no worries.

But for the price of a big kettle like that, i could set myself up with a second 50L Keggle (already have) a second burner (already have) and another bag to do side by side doubles of different varieties.

 

[Ross]

After all we are getting more from the grain then those that use a mash tun. The only difference I see is what I leave behind in my boil kettle as compared to the fancy mutli-vessel systems with false bottoms or hop screens.

Not quite true, a fly or double run-off batch sparge on a traditional mash will give you better efficiency than a full volume BIAB flood sparge - but again it's not essential to making good beer.

Cheers Ross

Edit: A batch sparger could quite easily squeeze the grain bed after draining to extract more liquid & probably a lot easier, but I don't know anyone at a homebrew level who bothers.

 

[marksy]

Has anyone come up with any smarter method of bag squeezing other than using your hands + gloves?

Im thinking of experimenting using either ratchet straps or perhaps a modified utility clamp with two boards of ply to sandwich the bag together to effortlessly squeeze that liquor out of there..

I sit my bag in a big strainer that we use for noodles then with the lid from my pot I squash down but only after i leave it sitting there to drip for awhile. Or if you can suspend the bag you can get 2 sauspan lids and sqiush sideways.

 

[MarkBastard]

Or you could put your cake rack against the drain hole of an esky (assuming you own one), mash in your bag in the esky, recirculate until clear & drain into your urn while bringing to the boil.

Seriously, if you've out grown the simplicity of biab in a one vessel set up, do yourself a favour and consider mashing/sparging in the traditional manner.

cheers Ross

Edit: Not having a go at BIAB, as we recommend it here in the shop all the time to get people into AG.

My eski is pretty gross otherwise I definitely would do a full volume mash in an eski and drain back into the HLT and away I go.

I don't think I'm talking about something very complicated. At the moment I lift the bag, which is the hard part unless you have the urn very low, get the wife to give it a good squeeze, and then I chuck the bag into my 19L Big W pot, which is really being used as a bucket not a second vessel.

The cake rack would just be to keep the bag off the bottom of the pot/bucket and allow the wort to drain off rather than needing squeezing. Would seriously be easier than using rope or even just lifting and holding above the urn.

Considering I already own the pot and a cake rack costs nothing I'm gunna give it a go for sure.

Like I said, if I had a clean eski around I could use the BIAB bag in the eski and it'd be a similar thing, but surely this would drain like arse without a manifold/false bottom? Otherwise why not just shove some mesh into the eski drain to stop the grain coming through and not even use a bag?

 

[Bribie G]

I think the point being made by the OP is something that occurs to most if not all BIABers - after the hoist and drain and squeeze, that spent grain tastes annoyingly sweet. Bugger bugger bugger, all those nice fermentables going into the compost or to the chooks.

So two avenues suggest themselves, some sort of sparge, and some sort of really serious squeeze.

In practice however, it's probably better just to pony up an extra dollar and put in a tad more grain initially. I sparge now and again if I have a big grain bill because my 40 L urn is a bit of a strait jacket and the hoisting of the bag takes so much wort out of the vessel that a smallish sparge restores the correct pre boil volume by washing some back in. This doesn't arise for beers with a grain bill of less than around 5k, I have found - say for a mild or an Aussie lager with 4k total of grain it's not worth the hassle. As far as squeezing goes, many International mega breweries of the Interemegabevbrewcorp sort use massive hydraulic press arrangements to wring the last euro cent out of every batch. But then that's their main purpose in life, to make money for the shareholders.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

The thing is - even when you have a system with intergral sparging... the grains still taste sweet. A stock BIAB with no sparge will probably get you somewhere in the vicinity of 70-75% efficiency... a moderate batch sparge system will do only a little better. So the grains in the batch system will taste just as sweet as the BIAB grains.

You sparge the BIAB... you get more sugars out and the grains taste less sweet... you feel better, but you have actually gone over and above what's normal for average brewers to experience. Its something that many BIAB brewers won't really have their heads around because they have never brewed in another way... but the other ways just aren't that much more efficient than BIAB. (fly sparging excluded... it is)

I actually concur entirely with Ross - I see so many people starting to creep up the complexity of their BIAB systems and also think that they might well benefit from a serious consideration of the non-BIAB options.

Certainly not everyone - some people want to fancy up their BIAB systems and intend to deliberately stick with BIAB because they like it the fundamentals. But others started BIABing solely for the simplicity... if they are going to fancy up. There is a whole world of other options out there, some of which I think are a bit better than BIAB at various aspects of the brewing process.

Squeezing - jeez... how much are you guys trying to squeeze that its such a pain?? Pull the bag out... let it hang over a bucket till it stops dripping, give it a quick squeeze for a few seconds.... done. If the entire process of pulling and squeezing your bag takes a cumulative total even of 2mins worth of you actually doing something (not including dripping time) you're working too hard.

 

[Nick JD]

Squeezing - jeez...

I don't squeeze, I loveingly and soothingly coax the sweet liquor from the udder. I empty the bucket into the pot and then put the grain bag in the bucket and put a lid on it to keep the bugs out.

Then three days later I walk past an relaise I still haven't emptied the bag and hosed it out. Upon taking the lid off the green bucket I :icon_vomit:

There's about 3-400ml of sweet & sour soup in the bottom.