A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[eamonnfoley]

Yep you are right. You can do your recipe to whatever efficiency you like as long as you set the batch size accordingly. eg use 75-85% if your batch size includes trub. Use more like 60% if it doesn't. (I haven't tried the latter but I would imagine it works???)

Did you try changing those figures I mentioned? Losse to mash tun, kettle, trub, chiller etc.?

That is where the problem lies. You should be able to set all this up and the program should tell you what your efficiency will be into boiler, into fermenter etc etc. But you fill all those in and it makes no difference!

This is where all heads start spinning!!!


Pat

P.S. I am still waiting for one of your, "new" beers?

yeah i can see how beersmith doesnt link up well from recipe to equipment, etc. Best to use them all independently. So when most people use the word efficiency they dont mean "brewhouse efficiency", but "brewing efficiency". I think im at about 65% brewhouse, which is probably about 75% brewing efficiency

My keg of ordinary bitter is just about finished! You might have to taste the next batch!

 

[PistolPatch]

My keg of ordinary bitter is just about finished! You might have to taste the next batch!

:angry:

Yep, Beersmith "Brewhouse Efficiency" uses volume x gravity at the end of the boil.

Theoretically this efficiency figure should also equal volume x gravity at the beginning of the boil but for several brewers this doesn't happen.

Safest place to measure your "Beersmith Efficiency" is after the boil and include all the volume. If you use a chiller, drain your clear wort into the fermenter and then tip all the kettle trub into a 5lt brewer's measuring jug. Add what you have in your jug to what you have in your fermenter and use that as the volume.

Your gravity should not change after the boil until the yeast starts working of course!

Good fun eh?

EDIT: After the hose debacle, I want you to go and buy a measuring jug and become an avid reporter of your figures in the BIAB Brewer Register thread

 

[katzke]

katzke noticed in the BIABrewer Register thread that I have a very high evaporation rate on my brews. I thought it better to answer in this thread....

My pot is a 70lt Robinox with a diameter of 45cm (not 50 like I said in the other thread sorry). A standard keggle, from memory, has a circumference of 33cm. This means that the surface area of my pot is almost double that of a keggle - (1590 versus 855.)


I have done a few brews side by side with others and tasted beers from others using the same recipes. There is no problem on the hop side.


Spot,
Pat.

Other then technical questions of why you would have a different boil off rate based on volume I did some checking on the hop aroma question.

The oils associated with aroma are volatile or will boil off.

From here http://www.probrewer.com/resources/hops/products.php The same phenomenon may, however, be less favourable for essential oil utilization. The relatively slow-release of oils from whole glands of leaf hops allows time for oxidation of the major hydrocarbons such as humulene to humulene epoxides, etc. thought to be responsible for good hop aroma in beer. The ruptured glands in powder pellets may lose the vast majority of these hydrocarbons by volatilization before the oxidation products have a chance to form.

So it would seem that some loss does happen but that the hops limit this by what is happening in the boiling wort.

So just like cube hopping there must be a difference but is it detectable by us in most beers?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

not really, the rate at which the hop hydrocarbons evaporate isn't going to have a whole heaping lot to do with your kettle evaporation rate.

The hydrocarbons are basically gone in 10mins in any decent boil - a few more hanging around if you use hop flowers rather than pellets, because they come into solution slower - this gives them a chance to oxidise, and the oxidised products are less volatile as well as often more aromatic than the actual oils.

The only real way to keep any of the hydrocarbon fraction in your beer from kettle hopping - is to use a hopback. Fortunately, you can get that HC fraction by dry hopping - then you are talking more actual terpenes and less epoxides. Which is why your dry hopping gives a more resinous, "hoppy" aroma than late hopping, with a hopback giving a nice mix of both.

 

[tumi2]

............ And yes, I would be wrapped if you could record your figures in the BIAB Brewer Register thread especially as you are taking all those measurements. Doing this will be really helpful. Once you post your first figures up, I'll send you a spreadsheet with all the figures to date and continue to do so. You'll find it very interesting.

I'll look forward to it.

:icon_cheers:
Pat

P.S. It sounds as though you worked out how to get Beersmith to do the efficiency calcs for you. Is that right or do you still need a hand?

HI there
as promised here are my figures.

Desired Batch Size* (lts): 23 liters into fermenter 27 after boil
Vessel Type (Keggle or xlt Pot): 50 liter Stainless
Length of Boil (mins): 60 mins
Grain Bill (kgs):4kg Pale Ale 700 gr Light Crystal
Starting Volume of Water (lts):38
Volume at Boil Start (lts):34
Specific Gravity Reading at Start of Boil (hydrometer sample cooled to 15 or 20 degrees): 1034 @ 24 degrees
Plato Gravity Reading at Start of Boil (refractometer sample cooled to 20 degrees): NA
Volume at End of Boil (lts - deduct 4% if measured at 100 degrees): 25.6
Specific Gravity at End of Boil (hydrometer sample cooled to 15 or 20 degrees):1040 @ 20 degs
Plato Gravity Reading at End of Boil (refractometer sample cooled to 20 degrees):
Are you chilling? (Yes/No):no
Trub Left in Kettle (lts):2.5
Volume into Cube (lts):between 23 and 23.5 liters
Volume into Fermenter (lts):22.8
Specific Gravity Reading into Fermenter (hydrometer sample at 15 or 20 degrees): 1040
Plato Gravity Reading into Fermenter (refractometer sample at 20 degrees):
FINAL Specific Gravity Reading after Fermentation (hydrometer sample at 15 or 20 degrees): 1015
FINAL Plato Gravity Reading after Fermentation (refractometer sample at 20 degrees):
Fermenter Trub (lts): 2.5
Resulting Batch Size (lts): 21.5 ltr out of fermenter

UNfortunatelty my second brew has also failed much the same way my first one has. Its pretty frustrating that i have done the same brew twice trying to get rid of a bad cardboard taste nd got the same bad taste in both. I have created a thread on this here which has provided some useful ideas a to what it is.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=35248

 

[PistolPatch]

tumi, thanks a heap for that. I'll throw your figures into the spreadsheet and send you a copy once I get through this Australia's Biggest Brew Day weekend. I have a lot of cleaning, weighing, crushing, filtering etc to do

Spot!

 

[PistolPatch]

Offy seems to be having a bit of trouble with his first BIAB. See here

LOL!

 

[reviled]

Thought I would just post a link to my blog which shows my process for BIAB :icon_cheers:

http://realbeernz.ning.com/profiles/blogs/biab-reviled-style

 

[PistolPatch]

Good on you reviled. Well written too mate but I think you should move the last sentence to the top

You've been doing a great job over there helping other BIABers get going. I received a nice email yesterday from one of the guys you helped, Pilgrim, who thanks you in his pictorial blog. Check out his shiny brew kettle!

Must be cold over there mate if you have to do your mash inside a cow

:icon_cheers:
Pat

P.S. See how you go with a 90 minute mash. I read some interesting experiment a while back and it concluded that high liquor to grain ratio mashes such as BIAB will give you better conversion in the longer mash. This might help with the under-attenuation problem - not sure???

 

[reviled]

Good on you reviled. Well written too mate but I think you should move the last sentence to the top

You've been doing a great job over there helping other BIABers get going. I received a nice email yesterday from one of the guys you helped, Pilgrim, who thanks you in his pictorial blog. Check out his shiny brew kettle!

Must be cold over there mate if you have to do your mash inside a cow


Pat

P.S. See how you go with a 90 minute mash. I read some interesting experiment a while back and it concluded that high liquor to grain ratio mashes such as BIAB will give you better conversion in the longer mash. This might help with the under-attenuation problem - not sure???

Its all about sharing the BIAB love! lol, ive got a few people into BIAB, some have moved onto conventional mashing, others are still going strong :beerbang:

Ill give the 90 min mash a go, allthough i think the culprit is definately the thermometer, as it started flashing HH and not working not too long after that brew lol, so one would assume it was probably giving me false readings?? Off to buy a new therm <_<

 

[RdeVjun]

Its all about sharing the BIAB love! lol, ive got a few people into BIAB, some have moved onto conventional mashing, others are still going strong :beerbang:

Ill give the 90 min mash a go, allthough i think the culprit is definately the thermometer, as it started flashing HH and not working not too long after that brew lol, so one would assume it was probably giving me false readings?? Off to buy a new therm <_<

Yep, I'd support that- I've been 90 minute mashing for a while now (sometimes longer even, usually they're unplanned though) and am always pleased with the result, always comes in on the target SG, and so reliable that I never even bother to work the actual efficiency numbers out. Even last night's quite thick stout mash was just fine. 'Mash low, mash long' is my motto!

 

[Bribie G]

Yep, I'd support that- I've been 90 minute mashing for a while now (sometimes longer even, usually they're unplanned though) and am always pleased with the result, always comes in on the target SG, and so reliable that I never even bother to work the actual efficiency numbers out. Even last night's quite thick stout mash was just fine. 'Mash low, mash long' is my motto!

Because I passively lag my urn during mashing, 90 minutes or 60 minutes is all the same to me and when caught out shopping it's even gone two hours no worries. The only time I do a short mash is when I'm aiming for a highly dextrinous wort (recently did a UK mild at 70 degrees for 60 minutes and a FES partial with a Coopers stout, where I did similar with the grain bill.

On the other hand with Aussie Olds and Pales I go 64 degrees for 90 mins. Horses for courses.

 

[Renegade]

Simple question, so I'm not opening a new thread. I just rang my closest Spotlight, and they only have Ivory swiss voile. Is this even the same product as the white polyester product you guys use ?

The girl on the phone was a bit, well, THICK. For some reason she could only say 'I think so" when I asked her if it was polyester.

 

[Bribie G]

Simple question, so I'm not opening a new thread. I just rang my closest Spotlight, and they only have Ivory swiss voile. Is this even the same product as the white polyester product you guys use ?

The girl on the phone was a bit, well, THICK. For some reason she could only say 'I think so" when I asked her if it was polyester.

I've seen that stuff and it's for dressmaking so not suitable. Best to just go there to the rolls of sheer curtain material and get polyester stuff that looks like this:'




As long as it's definitely polyester or nylon it will do the job.

 

[smollocks]

Simple question, so I'm not opening a new thread. I just rang my closest Spotlight, and they only have Ivory swiss voile. Is this even the same product as the white polyester product you guys use ?

The girl on the phone was a bit, well, THICK. For some reason she could only say 'I think so" when I asked her if it was polyester.

A Spotlight tag with product code is quoted in this thread: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=415678

I took that to Spotlight, they looked it up on the computer and found the exact shelf it was on.

I also recommend getting some strong cord with which to hold the bag. The ~6mm typical tracksuit cord I got hasn't handled the weight of wet grain and has broken already.

 

[Renegade]

Already have that PLU in my wallet - but THANKS. It's good for people to keep linking to it for the reference of others.

Good call on the cord/weight issues. I'll use a bloody big piece of nylon 'rope' or something similar. That'll do the trick.

 

[PistolPatch]

Its all about sharing the BIAB love! lol, ive got a few people into BIAB, some have moved onto conventional mashing, others are still going strong :beerbang:

Ill give the 90 min mash a go, allthough i think the culprit is definately the thermometer, as it started flashing HH and not working not too long after that brew lol, so one would assume it was probably giving me false readings?? Off to buy a new therm <_<

LOL on the, "BIAB love!" Excuse the slow response but Katie has had us all brewing like maniacs this last week

You are doing a great job and you'll find that those who move onto conventional brewing will not suddenly post, "I made my first great beer!" It is tempting to buy new equipment or try a new brewing method when we have problems starting out. You'll find any number of kit brewers go and buy a water filter thinking this will make "the," difference. I did and it didn't. Nor did proper temperature control! Thankfully, most people don't have problems starting out with BIAB but if there is a problem I have yet to see it be suddenly solved by purchasing more equipment so keep your eye on those guys and make sure they aren't missing something basic. There is also no harm in trying out traditional brewing methods as long as you are not spending a heap of money to do so or doing it believing it will give you a better beer. I love being able to brew two batches (doubles if I want) simultaneously with just two kettles. To do this traditionally is impossible. I would need at least 5 vessels - preferably 6! God forbid the cost or the logistics.

The 90 minute mash will do you no harm nor will an extra thermometer or ten . Once you establish the accuracy or any thermometer, then you have the convenience questions. e.g. Can I drop it in a mash or will the wort stuff the probe up?

I'm pretty happy with my thermometers but want a longer probe on them and more resistance to an accidental drop in the mash!

Spot!
Pat

P.S. Just working my way through the posts above. Looks like RdeVjun and BribieG agree on the longer mash so there you go! I think you'll find all long-time brewers (BIAB or traditional) feel safer with the 90 minute mash.

 

[buttersd70]

As a "conventional" mash brewer, I've never commented in the biab threads, but I have read them, with interest....

I have, however, recently had my first taste of a biab beer (thanks, bribie, me old mate). Spread the biab love, guys.....all the naysayers, with their over inflated egos, and hypothetical 'problems with the process'....I tasted that beer, and tasted it hard, cos it was sent to me specifically for feedback (on the recipe, not the method of production)....I was looking for issues....the clarity (and presentation in general) was excellent, and there were no discernable process induced off flavours at all.

Oh, and as it was a Mild, anything off would have stuck out like dogs wotsits.

And actually....Butters will shortly be joining you biab mob. Kinda sort of. I want to do some smaller batches for recipe development, and have decided that, given my current equipment, biab (or at least a hybridised method) is the way for me to go with it....

ps....yes, I'm heavily medicated atm.

 

[PistolPatch]

Already have that PLU in my wallet - but THANKS. It's good for people to keep linking to it for the reference of others.

Good call on the cord/weight issues. I'll use a bloody big piece of nylon 'rope' or something similar. That'll do the trick.

Katie busted her bag last weekend. If you get a tear in your bag for some reason, make sure you patch it before your next brew!!!

I just gave Katie and Lloyd my original BIAB bag with the drawstring. It served me well and even did a few double-batches!

But, for the price and convenience, I think it is best to buy a bag from Gryphon Brewing. He uses the design that I supplied him with and that I used to get made up for anyone who asked me too. I used to charge only the cost price of material and what my dry-cleaner charged me. This came to $38 from memory - $26 for the sewing and $12 for the material. This was pretty inconvenient for me and also for my dry-cleaner who finally refused to do any more!

So, I think it is not a bad idea to buy one.

Maybe I'll send Gryphon an email asking him to include some spare fabric for drunken brewers who tear or burn their bags?


Pat

 

[PistolPatch]

As a \"conventional\" mash brewer, I\'ve never commented in the biab threads, but I have read them, with interest....

I have, however, recently had my first taste of a biab beer (thanks, bribie, me old mate). Spread the biab love, guys.....all the naysayers, with their over inflated egos, and hypothetical \'problems with the process\'....I tasted that beer, and tasted it hard, cos it was sent to me specifically for feedback (on the recipe, not the method of production)....I was looking for issues....the clarity (and presentation in general) was excellent, and there were no discernable process induced off flavours at all.

Oh, and as it was a Mild, anything off would have stuck out like dogs wotsits.

And actually....Butters will shortly be joining you biab mob. Kinda sort of. I want to do some smaller batches for recipe development, and have decided that, given my current equipment, biab (or at least a hybridised method) is the way for me to go with it....

ps....yes, I\'m heavily medicated atm.

butters, you are the man! Just because of your post, I am going to release a sneak preview of the intended BIAB FAQ\'s!!!

I have split several of the answers into replying to varying levels of brewer. The last category might be of interest to you - maybe?

So, here is the first sneak preview of the upcoming BIAB FAQ\'s :super: ...

Why BIAB?

If you are reading about BIAB then you are obviously getting a taste for all-grain brewing or you already are a full mash brewer. BIAB has many advantages for both. Jump to the section below that is most applicable to you.

A Simple Answer for the Inexperienced All-Grain Brewer

BIAB is a new method of brewing that due to its quality, simplicity and economy, enables an easy skip from the too-often, uncertainty of extract/kit brewing, straight into the delights and certainty of all-grain brewing. (Forget about extract twang, steeping and partial-mashing or saving up for a traditional rig.)

BIAB has already proved it produces beer equivalent in quality to traditional brewing techniques but BIAB also...

is cheaper - needs less equipment.
is simpler to do.
is easier to understand.
takes less time.
needs less space.
is a method with a tremendous amount of flexibility.

Unless you inherited a traditional brewery, it is very hard to think of any situation where BIAB is not the ideal set-up in both the short and long term. (see “For the Experienced All-Grain Brewer,” below.)

A Detailed Answer for the Inexperienced All-Grain Brewer

Most full mash brewers will have started with extract or extract kit brewing and then moved to steeping and/or partial mashing before going all-grain. This is often a long and frustrating process not just because of extract’s inflexibility compared to all-grain but also due to the difficulty, in many locales, of sourcing fresh extract of consistent and high quality. Those brewers who cannot access such quality extract will always be disappointed in their brews due to extract “twang,” – an astringent, puckering flavour that new brewers often blame on themselves.

This twang causes many brewers to give up the brewing game completely without even realising they were not to blame for their low quality beer.

If you are lucky enough to be able to source high quality extract, you can certainly brew a credible if not great beer but there is still nowhere near the flexibility, certainty and enjoyment of all-grain. Very few people give up all-grain brewing because it is almost impossible to brew an undrinkable beer if you follow a sound recipe and know the basics of cleanliness and temperature control. In fact, if you use a brilliant recipe such as those found in the book, “Brewing Classic Styles,” by Jamil Zainasheff and John J. Palmer, on your first brew, you could even brew an award-winning beer on your first batch.

BIAB enable brewers a simple skip out of extract or kit brewing and into all-grain.

An Answer for the Experienced All-Grain Brewer

If you already brew a great beer through batch or fly-sparging, then you should expect to achieve that same quality beer with BIAB.

The more time and money that you have spent on traditional brewing though, the less advantage BIAB will be to you. This is not because you will brew a better beer with your set-up but simply because the more we spend on any brewing set-up, the more we confine ourselves to it. As brewers we buy our “appliances”, and then build our “kitchen,” around these which is fair enough.

The fact though that BIAB can brew excellent beer will prick any good brewer’s ears up and make them wish to be at least a little more knowledgeable about it. It has even suited some brewers to completely or partially change from traditional to BIAB due to its efficiency in one or a combination of the following areas – time, space and economy.

Maybe you too might be able/like to convert your HLT and kettle into two MLT/kettles to give you twice the output on your brew day? It is certainly worth considering whether BIAB can simplify or improve your existing set-up and needs.

Thanks butters for the positive feedback.

:icon_cheers:
Pat

P.S. Special thanks to BribieG too. (Bribie, thanks for doing as I asked and slipping that gold-winning commercially brewed Mild to butters. I will fix you up for the postage etc at the Swap - our secret, ok?)