Water Chem Additions In Adelaide

[A3k]

Hi all,
Im starting to make pilsners etc. My last beer was a pilsner about to start lagering (6kg pils, 50g acid malt). My next one is probably going to be a CAP.
Up until now I havent been messing with water chemistry yet, but Im wondering if I should with these light coloured beers to prevent astringency which I have noticed a bit in the latest pilsner (nothing major though).

Or should I just up the acid malt to 5%??? Maybe get some PH stabilizer?

The specs I have for water in Adelaide are below.
Using john palmers graph (attached), it shows that I need to add about 200ppm of calcium. I then used a excel spreadsheet (attached) on his website which said I should use about 20g of gypsum. Seems like a lot to me.
http://howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html
Is this correct??? Is it a good idea, or am I better off trying to source some rainwater (my tank is disgusting at home).
Im about to buy a water 1 micron poly pleated filter to filter the yeast out of my final product. Would this remove any of the chemicals in my water ready for mashing???



Thanks,
Alan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adelaide, Australia
Calcium(Ca): 22.3 ppm
Magnesium(Mg): 14.7 ppm
Sodium(Na): 75.6 ppm
Sulfate(SO4): 16.6 ppm
Chloride (Cl): 0.5 ppm
Bicarbonate(HCO3): 106.0 ppm
PH: 7.5 PH

Notes
PH and HCO3 and Cl was taken from http://www.sawater.com.au/NR/rdonlyres/474.../0/DWQR2005.pdf

the rest was from a post i put on aussie home brewer.com
--------------------------------------------------------

View attachment water_Chemistry.bmp

View attachment Palmers_Metric_RA_ver2d.xls

 

[A3k]

I decided to go with about 4% acidulated malt. Just ordered the malt now, will puy some polenta for the corn.

Not sure if I should still put any gypsum in it. Anyone have any clues?

Recipe is based on Jamils recipe on his website with some acidulated malt.



BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Jamil - CAP
Brewer: Al
Asst Brewer:
Style: Classic American Pilsner
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 19.04 L
Boil Size: 24.41 L
Estimated OG: 1.058 SG
Estimated Color: 7.2 EBC
Estimated IBU: 32.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.60 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 70.59 %
1.30 kg Corn, Flaked (2.6 EBC) Grain 25.49 %
0.20 kg Acid Malt (5.9 EBC) Grain 3.92 %
25.00 gm Saaz [4.50 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 15.0 IBU
28.00 gm Saaz [4.50 %] (20 min) Hops 9.2 IBU
28.00 gm Saaz [4.50 %] (10 min) Hops 5.5 IBU
28.00 gm Saaz [4.50 %] (5 min) Hops 3.0 IBU
28.00 gm Saaz [4.50 %] (0 min) Hops -

Cheers,
Al

 

[katzke]

I am not sure if your calculations are correct. I am not sure if your figure for bicarbonate is total harness or total alkalinity. There is a difference.

Pilsners are made with soft water and low brewing salts. The amount of sodium is kind of high. You could add some gypsum or Calcium Chloride. Gypsum will make it bitter and Sodium Chloride will make it malty. Even cutting with distilled water would help with the sodium.

I am no expert but learning.

 

[A3k]

Cheers Katzke

Im not sure if my calcs are right either.

Looking back at the sources for the water, I think I may have used CaCO3 for HCO3 which beersmith was after as it said total hardness. Not sure why I did this.

Quoted from the dated water report:
-----------------------------------------------
Metropolitan Source Water Quality (Inlets to Water Treatment Plants) 2004-05
Total Hardness as CaCO3 (mg/L) 107

Metropolitan Systems Customer Tap Water Quality 2004-05
Hardness (as CaCO3) (mg/L) ~ 125

So theres a fair chance my calcs were off.
-------------------------------------------------

I was worried about the gypsum additions adding a harsh bitterness due to the sodium. I might look into getting some rain water.

Im thinking I might have to make do without the additions this weekends brew, and do some serious research ready for the next one.

Thanks,
Alan

 

[drsmurto]

A3K

Preference would be to start with rainwater. Unfortunately there is bugger all of that around, i am almost out of the 18,000L i started the summer with.

Have attached the water report for Adelaide. Its a 5 year average 2003-08.

Might be worth sending a PM to a few of the more experienced Adelaide brewers re water additions. Pedro at Gulf Brewery makes a pilsner - IIRC he adds Ca to his water source.

Rainwater for pilsners, tap water for everything else for me but water chemistry is a road i will be heading down soon.

Adelaide water isnt nearly as bad as people are led to believe.......

Cheers
DrSmurto

View attachment 5year_data_03_08.xls

 

[katzke]

Cheers Katzke

I'm not sure if my calcs are right either.

Looking back at the sources for the water, I think I may have used CaCO3 for HCO3 which beersmith was after as it said total hardness. Not sure why I did this.

Quoted from the dated water report:
-----------------------------------------------
Metropolitan Source Water Quality (Inlets to Water Treatment Plants) 2004-05
Total Hardness as CaCO3 (mg/L) 107

Metropolitan Systems Customer Tap Water Quality 2004-05
Hardness (as CaCO3) (mg/L) ~ 125

So there's a fair chance my calcs were off.
-------------------------------------------------

I was worried about the gypsum additions adding a harsh bitterness due to the sodium. I might look into getting some rain water.

I'm thinking I might have to make do without the additions this weekend's brew, and do some serious research ready for the next one.

Thanks,
Alan

Gypsum does not add Sodium. It is Calcium Sulphate. Table salt and baking soda add Sodium.

 

[A3k]

Have attached the water report for Adelaide. Its a 5 year average 2003-08.

Awesome, thanks for that Dr Smurto,

Do you know if there's any way to be sure of the treatment plant your water comes from? i live in clarence gardens just south of the city and I assumed happy valley.

I'll try giving Pedro a PM and see what i can get out of him.

Thanks,
Al

 

[A3k]

Gypsum does not add Sodium. It is Calcium Sulphate. Table salt and baking soda add Sodium.

Cheers for that. looks like i've got some reading to do.

 

[drsmurto]

Awesome, thanks for that Dr Smurto,

Do you know if there's any way to be sure of the treatment plant your water comes from? i live in clarence gardens just south of the city and I assumed happy valley.

I'll try giving Pedro a PM and see what i can get out of him.

Thanks,
Al

Give SA water a call, they will know.

I tested the water that comes out of my tap so i have a better idea of the quality, although it will change over time no doubt due to inflows, rain etc

Also tested my rainwater - nice and clean, effectively a blank canvas.

 

[muckanic]

If you think you're noticing astringency, that's a sparging problem rather than a mashing problem. Sparging acidity is typically adjusted with acids, not minerals. On those numbers, I'd be inclined to use lactic acid in both the mash (to take out the alkalinity) and the sparge, and leave the acidulated malt to those obliged to follow German brewing laws. Or try a phytase rest in the mash, provided you can find a malt with the appropriate enzyme. Ca salts will work to acidify the mash, but at the cost of hardening the water (although I personally think that many folks overestimate their ability to detect the impact of modest additions of minerals upon beer styles). However, I suspect your quoted Cl- levels are way low. I believe many Adelaide brewers prefer gypsum over CaCl2 for that reason, and I certainly made some over-salty brews that way when I lived there. As for quantities of gypsum, no-one should be adding more than 1t to soft water or 2t to highly alkaline water (per 23L brew). By highly alkaline, I mean water scale is a significant problem, which it is generally not in Adelaide (maybe so in the Mt Gambier region). The bigger problem is NaCl salinity, plus some organic odour and discolouration in the Hills.

 

[A3k]

On those numbers, I'd be inclined to use lactic acid in both the mash (to take out the alkalinity) and the sparge,

Cheers muckanic
where is a good source of lactic acid and how much am i likely to need?

do i just add it until the water gets to a certain PH?

 

[Gulf Brewery]

Cheers muckanic
where is a good source of lactic acid and how much am i likely to need?

do i just add it until the water gets to a certain PH?

Hi a3k

You are better off using phosphoric acid for the pH adjustment. You can get it from AceChem on Mooringue ave, Campden Pk. It isn't expensive and I think they will sell you a litre which is more than you will use in your lifetime.

As for the amount of adjustment needed, please post your completed spreadsheet here. We can look at it and everyone can use it as an example and learn about adjusting their water. If someone thinks it is wrong or could be better, than they can post an updated version in this thread.

Cheers
Peter

 

[A3k]

As for the amount of adjustment needed, please post your completed spreadsheet here. We can look at it and everyone can use it as an example and learn about adjusting their water. If someone thinks it is wrong or could be better, than they can post an updated version in this thread.

Okay, heres my try so far.
Heres the data I took from Dr Smurtos spreadsheet. My water comes from HappyValley. I think I used the right CaCO3.

(*indicates what I used in the spreadsheet)

PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS
Total Hardness as CaCO3 (mg/L) 124
Non Carbonate Hardness (mg/L) as CaCO3 75
*pH 7.3
*Alkalinity as CaCO3 (mg/L) 49


ANIONS & CATIONS
Bicarbonate (mg/L) 60
*Calcium (mg/L) 24
*Chloride (mg/L) 125
Fluoride (mg/L) 0.84
*Magnesium (mg/L) 16
Potassium (mg/L) 4.2
*Sodium (mg/L) 71
Silica as SiO2 (mg/L) 6
*Sulphate (mg/L) 54

The spreadsheet only has hydrochloric and lactic acid. With 37% and 88% concentrations the amounts to add are the same if you use either. (will change this when I get some acid)

The colour I wanted to achieve was about 7.2EBC in beersmith. This gives a low Residual Alkalinity of -78 and a high RA of -19

With the numbers I used, 2mL of either acid brings the RA to -58 which is between the two.

Am I on the right track here? Ive attached the spreadsheet.

Thanks again,
Al

View attachment Acid_addition.xls

 

[Gulf Brewery]

OK, you are getting close

You should always add your target profile water in there, even if it is very soft like Pilsen. You can search and find the target figures for each of the major locations.

Now add CaCl to get your calcium level above 50ppm which is the lowest amount you want for happy yeast.

As for the acid additions, you know from the spreadsheet that if you adjust it, it is going to get your required RA. I would still use phosphoric acid to adjust it, unless you really want to use lactic. pH adjustment with any acid requires a decent pH meter as the water does vary.

Cheers
Pedro

 

[A3k]

Hi guys,
Just bringing up an old thread.

I finally got the How To Brew book, and am getting more of an idea on the chemistry side of things.

My next beer is an Oktoberfest (so added Munich water), and looks like Ill need to increase the RA a little.

Looking at the Adelaide 5 year Water Report (cheers Dr Smurto) shows Alkalinity as CaCO3 (mg/L) = 60mg/L in Happy Valley. There are a few other CaCO3 values there, have I got the right one for the calculations?
Calcium (ppm) 29
Magnesium (ppm) 19
Alkalinity as CaCO3 60
Sodium (ppm) 93
Chloride (ppm) 162 (much higher than Munich)
Sulfate (ppm) 65
Water pH 7.9

I entered my info into the calculator (Attached). The water as is shows Im good to brew beers between 15 and 24 EBC.

Unfortunately my Calcium levels are only 29ppm, but I need 50 for healthy yeast (will yeast nutrient do).
Also, the chloride levels are higher than the sulfates, so its heavily lending towards malty.

My next beer is to be an Oktoberfest with an EBC of 24.7 (SRM10.3) just a little out of range.

So I may want to add some Calcium Carbonate. This will increase RA and calcium at the same time.

Im thinking I have two options here
1) Add 1gm of Chalk. The graph then says my EBC is in range and my calcium is at 56 ppm. However my Chloride/Sulphate ratio is Very Malty.
2) Add 2gm of Chalk, and 1gm of Gypsum. This keeps my EBC in range, but reduces the Chloride/Sulphate balance to Malty. (or 3gm Chalk, 2gm Gypsum and ratio is balanced)

Will this actually improve my beer, or add too many salts for no benefit.
I have Yeast Nutrient, so I use that (in hope to account for the calcium deficiency), and Im only just out of the Acceptable colour range from the Spreadsheet anyway.
Also, is the Chlorine/Gypsum ratio all about balance, or is adding salts to balance them also adding too many salts to the water profile.

I think Im now looking at this correctly.
Im mainly worried about lighter beers, but I figured I may as well finally get started playing around with the whole thing.

Thanks for you patients,
Alan

View attachment Acid_addition.xls

 

[Jazman]

I am lazy a lot of my brews are 1/2 rainwater and 1/2 tap water but for my check pils i use rainwater and add a tad of gypsum my english bitters i add gypsum to tap water

 

[A3k]

If you saw the sludge in the bottom of my rain water tank, you wouldn't use it. The sludge is well above the tap level, so i have to siphon water out and just use it on the garden.
I'm going to invenst in a new tank one of these days.

Maybe i should get my rain water tested anyway, then use that if i'm happy with it.

 

[katzke]

Hi guys,
Just bringing up an old thread.

I finally got the How To Brew book, and am getting more of an idea on the chemistry side of things.

My next beer is an Oktoberfest (so added Munich water), and looks like I'll need to increase the RA a little.

Looking at the Adelaide 5 year Water Report (cheers Dr Smurto) shows Alkalinity as CaCO3 (mg/L) = 60mg/L in Happy Valley. There are a few other CaCO3 values there, have I got the right one for the calculations?
Calcium (ppm) 29
Magnesium (ppm) 19
Alkalinity as CaCO3 60
Sodium (ppm) 93
Chloride (ppm) 162 (much higher than Munich)
Sulfate (ppm) 65
Water pH 7.9

I entered my info into the calculator (Attached). The water as is shows I'm good to brew beers between 15 and 24 EBC.

Unfortunately my Calcium levels are only 29ppm, but I need 50 for healthy yeast (will yeast nutrient do).
Also, the chloride levels are higher than the sulfates, so it's heavily lending towards malty.

My next beer is to be an Oktoberfest with an EBC of 24.7 (SRM10.3) just a little out of range.

So I may want to add some Calcium Carbonate. This will increase RA and calcium at the same time.

I'm thinking I have two options here
1) Add 1gm of Chalk. The graph then says my EBC is in range and my calcium is at 56 ppm. However my Chloride/Sulphate ratio is Very Malty.
2) Add 2gm of Chalk, and 1gm of Gypsum. This keeps my EBC in range, but reduces the Chloride/Sulphate balance to Malty. (or 3gm Chalk, 2gm Gypsum and ratio is balanced)

Will this actually improve my beer, or add too many salts for no benefit.
I have Yeast Nutrient, so I use that (in hope to account for the calcium deficiency), and I'm only just out of the Acceptable colour range from the Spreadsheet anyway.
Also, is the Chlorine/Gypsum ratio all about balance, or is adding salts to balance them also adding too many salts to the water profile.

I think I'm now looking at this correctly.
I'm mainly worried about lighter beers, but I figured I may as well finally get started playing around with the whole thing.

Thanks for you patients,
Alan

Sodium looks kind of high also.

What happens if you add a jug of distilled water? Can you buy a jug of distilled water down there?

I would think it would not only reduce your Sodium but help with the Chloride Sulfate balance also.

 

[A3k]

Sodium looks kind of high also.

What happens if you add a jug of distilled water? Can you buy a jug of distilled water down there?

I would think it would not only reduce your Sodium but help with the Chloride Sulfate balance also.

Yeah, i'm pretty sure you can. We can get spring water (not what i want) or Demineralised water (is that distilled water).
I was looking for distilled water the other day in the supermarket, but didn't find anything with that label on it.
Can also get "Pure water" but not sure if it's actually pure, or just the brand name. will have to look into it.

definitely worth considering.

Cheers

 

[muckanic]

My next beer is to be an Oktoberfest with an EBC of 24.7 (SRM10.3) just a little out of range.

So I may want to add some Calcium Carbonate. This will increase RA and calcium at the same time.

I'm thinking I have two options here
1) Add 1gm of Chalk. The graph then says my EBC is in range and my calcium is at 56 ppm. However my Chloride/Sulphate ratio is Very Malty.
2) Add 2gm of Chalk, and 1gm of Gypsum. This keeps my EBC in range, but reduces the Chloride/Sulphate balance to Malty. (or 3gm Chalk, 2gm Gypsum and ratio is balanced)

Will this actually improve my beer, or add too many salts for no benefit.

Call me simplistic, but I mostly use salts for mash pH rather than from any bid to chase obscure malt or hop notes, or colour. I would personally use just enough chalk to balance the acidity of any specialty malts. That's originally why they favoured Vienna malt with the local water in places like Munich. Too much calcium, and phosphates start to over-precipitate and the yeast objects. I guess the nutrient could correct that aspect. I'm actually a little surprised that it supplies significant calcium.