Stainless Conicals

[Hoops]

Haven't had a chance to read through the whole thread but I would be very interested too.
I would probably go for the basic setup possibly without fittings and get them put on, probably triclove fittings.

If there's a couple of us from QLD then there might be a chance to put them all in together and save a bit on transporting them here, so keep me in mind too.

Hoops

 

[ausdb]

I haven't had a chance to look at fittings yet, but personally I like the idea of a rotating pickup tube on the side outlet, although the kits are bloody expensive. We might supply the first couple off the production line without a side fitting at all - it shouldn't be difficult for most people to drill a hole and mount their choice of pickup, and some people might be happy just using the bottom outlet anyway, especially if it makes the thing $200 cheaper!

[post="81863"][/post]​

Hi wortgames, have you worked out how to do the rotating racking arm yet? This page has a good idea http://www.deerislandbrewery.com/rotating_racking_arm.htm but I believe it could be done even better with less sanitary joins than he has done.

cheers ausdb

 

[redbeard]

could u get away with a fixed pickup tube, just using the bottom valve for yeast ?

on a different direction, ive seen some pics of conicals with what looks like a peltier cooler attached. I had some thoughts of adapting a computer water cooling solution design. wrap a copper / ss coil around the conical, cover in foam camping mat, then pipe the coil thru a heatsink sandwiching a decent peltier, with another big arse heatsink with huge fan attached. need a pump to push coolant (glycol?) thru. the nice aspect of the peltier, is that is can heat as well as cool, thou cooling might be all we need.

 

[Wortgames]

Peltier devices are notoriously inefficient and you'd need a monster to chill a whole brew. I'm staying away from that side of things for the time being but hope to be able to offer an inexpensive coil or sleeve - the way I see it you can warm or chill the liquid however you like.

Pickup tubes are another area where everybody will have their own preference of price vs luxury, and unless I can offer a full range of options at a great price I'm not going to keep everybody happy so I'd rather just make the main unit available and leave the details for each brewer to sort out. I'll certainly see what I can come up with, but it's not really a priority at this stage.

 

[Hoops]

Wortgames

as you say best to leave all that to others so you can concentrate on manufacturing the conicals.

SIZE : My preference would be for a 50L+ size.

LID : Lid is not important but I think it would be sooooo much easier if it can hold 1psi+ to pump out the beer. My preference though would be a 4" (100mm) BSM fitting or tri-clove fitting. This would make it easy to hold pressure, easy to fit other fitting (get a blank and drill out to fit airlocks, temp probes etc etc) and easy enough to undo and get a hand in to clean it.

RACKING ARM : I don't think a rotating racking arm is essential and they can always be ordered later as an upgrade. I actually think the way to go would be leave the bottom fitting and side fitting off and let people do their own, or have an option to weld a 1/2" BSP or triclove fitting on, then anything can be screwed/fitted on and made to adapt.

TEMP CONTROL : My preference would be to have one that would fit in a fridge but failing that I think a jacket would be the best option so that coolant could be pumped around it. Again if this is too expensive or too much design problems just go with a standard conical and people can fit their own coil inside through their lid.

To sum all that up I think keep it as simple as possible with a few basic options so that you don't need to make 20 different models. This will keep your capital required, time and designing to a minimum. You can always add fancy stuff later.

I will watch on eagerly and see what develops :super:

Hoops

 

[Hoops]

This is what I'm talking about :wub:

 

[Wortgames]

Hi Hoops, I agree entirely.

The first lot will be the smaller size, simply because they are going to be easier and cheaper to build. We'll probably need to take care of the bottom fitting as it will be intrinsic to the construction, but the side fitting can easily be added later simply by drilling a hole.

Not sure if I've mentioned this already, but the lid arrangement I am looking at currently is a scratch-resistant polycarbonate disc with a silicone seal, which will clamp to the rim of the fermenter by means of a galvanised steel lever-action rim clamp (as found on large paint tins and oil drums).

If successful this arrangement should be easy to clean and construct, and will use fairly cheap and easily replaceable components. It should have no trouble holding 1 or 2 PSI.

The larger size probably won't be able to use a galvanised rim clamp as I haven't been able to find them in suitable sizes, so the option is either a more elaborate arrangement or a stainless steel rim clamp. The stainless rim clamps cost about $120 each, but that may still work out cheaper than having to fabricate a more elaborate solution. Stainless may be an option for the smaller size too, but I can't see too many of us forking out $120 more for something which won't even contact the wort.

The smaller size will be around 300mm diameter and the larger size probably around 400mm. It may be worth considering using 2 smaller fermenters instead of a single large one - they will probably fit in a fridge easier, they will be lighter to carry and clean, and the price may well work out to be about the same.

 

[Rex]

This is what I'm talking about :wub:

[post="82032"][/post]​

That's dead sexy!

What's the knob on the cone for? Where did you get it made? Does it have a cooling jacket?

 

[BigAl]

Hoops, how do you get inside to clean that Cylindro connical? Or is it via a CIP system only? The idea of being able to take the top off to get in and clean it sound good.

 

[ausdb]

The larger size probably won't be able to use a galvanised rim clamp as I haven't been able to find them in suitable sizes, so the option is either a more elaborate arrangement or a stainless steel rim clamp. The stainless rim clamps cost about $120 each, but that may still work out cheaper than having to fabricate a more elaborate solution. Stainless may be an option for the smaller size too, but I can't see too many of us forking out $120 more for something which won't even contact the wort.

A 4" triclover ferrule, clamp, gasket and blank cap can be had for around $70 makes a good access panel for cleanout its bigger than a corny keg hatch and will hold pressure, it would not be that hard to manufacture. The extra cost would come from the domed top as in Hoops picture

 

[jayse]

If the price for 'two smalls' will be around even with a 'large' then i'd certainlly get the two smaller ones. However iam in adelaide and freight costs would be the ultimate decider. The price you mentioned of $250-500 sounds quite nice. The idea of doing a basic model for as close to $250 as you can sounds lovely to me.
Ausdb's suggestion there of building a top on it and having a 4" triclover ferulle is cool.
For the cap it would be good to have a simple barb for a blow of tube and later co2 line.
Anyway I'd be up for the simplest of things with most important on my list being able to get reasonble pressure in it. That gives you the means of even serving beer from it, that has major beer nerd factor :super:
Cooling methods should be quite easy for everyone to work out there own methods. If you wanted to jacket it or put coils on it I would think just wrapping it up in copper tubing would work well you could do several different coils in parralel with the cold water.
I don't think theres any need for any ellaborate racking arm, a side port is all anyone should need and others can fit whatever blows up there skirt when they get it. Shouldn't need any pick up tube inside.
Anyway its a big move for most to fork out a few hundred dollars for something that a 20 dollar 'bucket' has been doing so well for years. Being able to get up to 10psi with no leaks would be a big seller for me. But other than that simple and cheap.

Anyway all the best with it and looking forward to seing the progress.
'You got me floating'
Jayse

 

[sluggerdog]

Only just found this thread and am reading with interest.

A big seller for me would to be able to ferment at lager temps without a fridge (would this be possible?) Would be great to do away with the extra fridge or use it for other important things.

This way I coudl do my double batches, would probably get the 2 smaller ones.

 

[jimmyjack]

I love this whole concept I would be happy with the basic kit of the cylyndrical unit and lid. (The most inportant part) It would be nice to have all of the holes pre drilled for later upgrade, they could just be plugged with a cap. The stand would be nice but if it ads to the cost i am sure I could rig somthing up. not interested in cooling it as i already have a ferm fridge. I actually dont know how effecient this process would work anyway. If we could get away with one of these for 250 to 300 im in for sure, i would be willing to go into a shipping deal with the rest of the brisbanites.

Your humble servant

JJ

 

[Plastic Man]

Wortgames

Would this work for a simple lid ??.

What about running the legs up over the top of the fermenter. A simple bar then slots into these and goes across the top of the fermenter horizontally say 5 10cm above the lid. A large butterfly screw/bolt, (excuse the terminology I aint very technical), with some sort of rubber bottom to spread the load fits thru a threaded hole in the bar and you basically screw this down onto the polycarbonate lid to seal it. Would be pretty simple. Maybe just need to cut some slots in the legs so the lid slides in between them.

Another simple idea would be to weld 3 bolts to the side of the fermenter along the rim, facing up, (maybe with a bit of a spacer so they sit say 10mm off the side of the fermenter). The lid has 3 holes in it that fit over these bolts and you screw a butterfly nut down on all three to lock the lid down. It would mean that the lid would need to be about 20mm wider than the top of the fermenter, but I dont think this would be an issue. Would be cheap and easy. A silicon seal along the top edge of the fermenter creates the seal against the polycarbonate lid. No need to do anything fancy with the top which must save some cost.

These may not work but maybe they lead to an idea that will who knows Hope it helps. Would also be keen on one of the small ones when ready.

 

[ausdb]

This is what I'm talking about :wub:

[post="82032"][/post]​

Who made that one Hoops?
Is that a large BSM fitting on the top?

 

[Wortgames]

A triclover lid fitting will unfortunately be hugely expensive to produce. Firstly, on top of the cost of the fittings, we'd need to produce a lid and fabricate a flange to accept the triclover clamp. Then we still need to attach the lid to the body of the fermenter, so we are back at square one.

I'm not building Bentleys here. All fab work that needs to be done will probably add around $50 per hour to the final cost, not including parts, so I want to avoid getting bogged down in an elaborate design that it is going to inflate the end cost out of reach and stifle production. There's still a bit to be done below the lid!

Plastic Man, I have already considered your second method as a possibility and it may be the way we go for the larger size but if I can make my first choice work it should be neater and cheaper to produce, and hopefully won't be as prone to scratching and chipping from the wingnuts over time. I want to avoid using the legs for the lid mechanism as I'd like to keep them adjustable and possibly even give people the option of sourcing their own legs locally.

Thanks for the ideas everyone, watch this space and hopefully we'll have something built in the next couple of weeks.

 

[ausdb]

A triclover lid fitting will unfortunately be hugely expensive to produce. Firstly, on top of the cost of the fittings, we'd need to produce a lid and fabricate a flange to accept the triclover clamp. Then we still need to attach the lid to the body of the fermenter, so we are back at square one.

I'm not building Bentleys here. All fab work that needs to be done will probably add around $50 per hour to the final cost, not including parts, so I want to avoid getting bogged down in an elaborate design that it is going to inflate the end cost out of reach and stifle production. There's still a bit to be done below the lid!

[post="82087"][/post]​

It was only meant as an idea, if a stainless clamp was going to cost $120 then you still need some sort of lid for the container which would cost to fabricate as well. The flange for the triclover clamp is a plain off the shelf triclover ferrule.

 

[Hoops]

Firstly the photo I posted is not mine unfortunately but another brewer in my club.
They were locally made in Brisbane and yes it is a BSM fitting on the top (4" from memory).

Rex - not sure what knob you're talking about but there are 2 ball valves (dump valve and racking valve) then a small tap/valve for sampling and taking SG measurements.
No it doesn't have a cooling jacket but instead goes straight into a glass door fridge where it's temp is controlled and you can still view it

BigAl - the top has a 4" BSM fitting that as ausdb says is a biger access hole than a corny keg so that's how you get inside to clean it.

ausdb - yes it's a 4" BSM fitting.

As far as the lid is concerned I would much more prefer one like that in the photo (rolled edges and a 4" fitting) so much so that I would propably get it upgraded locally to that effect, but finding something that can do it and is willing is another story. As Jayse suggest with a lid like that you could easily undo the triclove clamp, take of the blank with airlock, and place a different blank (possibly with pressure gauge fitted) and pressurise to serving pressure and serve straight out of it....just like Little Creatures do

Wortgames, would it be possible to pay extra and get that done or are you just sticking to basics as it would be too much more work?
The Triclove fitting is an off the shelf piece. For example the ferrule ($20?) could be welded on then leave it to the individual to get the other ferrule or blank + clamp etc so that you have less outlay and less to worry about.
Would it be possible to get for example mine with a 1/2" triclove ferrule ($5-10) for the dump valve and racking valve? I would then get whatever other triclove fittings I needed so there's less for you to worry about.

You're getting me very excited here

Hoops

 

[Wortgames]

Re: triclover fittings - the issue as I see it is that unless you can get them 300mm in diameter, the triclover fitting still has to attach to a "lid" of some description, and then the lid still has to somehow attach to the body of the fermenter.

Welding any type of stainless lid directly to the fermenter body is not ideal, as it makes it very difficult to get in there to inspect and polish the inner welds and you will end up with bugtraps. So if we're not going to weld it, then we're back where we started with having to make a seal, and the triclover fitting really just becomes a bit of an extra gadget that hasn't actually solved anything.

The solution I am trying to make is actually very similar to a triclover arrangement in principle, in that it uses a clamping ring to squish the lid and the fermenter together, but it will be cheaper and larger and hopefully bypass a lot of fabrication steps. Having a full-size lid will also be better for most of us for observation, access and cleaning.

The way I see it, if I can supply these things with a simple polycarbonate disc and seal, and a groovy way to attach it, then you guys can knock yourselves out with modifications. You can get a stainless disc cut and weld a satellite dish to it if that makes you happier, and it can still attach with the same clamp and seal. I just want to get the basic thing built quickly and economically, and hopefully in a good versatile design that will let brewers trick them up as required.

We may be able to offer certain "factory" mods down the track but I'm largely relying on busy mates and after-hours workshop time, so I'd like to get a decent batch of vanilla flavour fermenters built before getting caught up in the toppings, especially as most people would be able to get the little mods done locally anyway.

 

[Rex]

Firstly the photo I posted is not mine unfortunately but another brewer in my club.
They were locally made in Brisbane and yes it is a BSM fitting on the top (4" from memory).

Post more pics for us to drool over if you've got any

BTW where was this one made? Perhaps they would be interested in a bulk deal???