Red Wine Problem!

[alexd74]

Hi all,
I have searched the net for answers on this but has led me nowhere, so I am resorting to posting on forums such as this.... I am hoping someone may be able to help me.....
I have 2 books on making wine (I have had my first decent crop of grapes this year) and have started making some of my own wine. I have put down 2 batches of 5 litres each. The first started about a week ago and the SG was 1.070 after 24 hours and the book gave me instructions on adjusting to 1.090, which I did (I think it was about 250GM of sugar, which I made into a syrup). The must fermented in a bucket for 7 days after which I strained into a demijohn (smelled great by the way so I dont think it is off or anything). The problem is I noticed a very slow to no activity from the wine (ie it seemed to have stopped fermenting!). I took another SG reading and it was 0.995 so I assume now it is finished? It is just that the books talk about closed fermentation for a month! Not a week! My other wine book talks breifly about not adding the sugar syrup all at once as it may inhibit the yeast development, but I do not think the fermentation is stuck as it has reached 0.995? Do you think there is anything I should do with this now? I added a very small pich of yeast nutrient this morning so see what would happen but I have no idea really. I am glad I have a second batch going now and I will try the slow addition of syrup to see if that makes a difference? Any insight and suggestions would be really appreciated!!!!!
Thanks!

 

[Adamt]

Well, it's a fermentation question so I'm sure quite a few beer fermentation principles still apply.

What temperature do your wine books suggest you ferment at? When brewing beer, higher than optimum temperatures result in a higher rate of fermentation (albeit with increasing by-product formation which may or may not be desired). You may have been fermenting above the normal fermentation temperature and so a fast fermentation has occurred.

As far as when to add the sugar syrup is concerned (once again only using beer brewing ideas): Either add it straight away just before or after you pitch yeast, or add it near the end of fermentation. The idea is you don't want to stress the yeast by changing the food concentration during its multiplying stage (first 24-48 hours usually).

I'd hazard a guess here and say 0.995 is done. However, leave it for another day or two and ensure the SG does not change.


Long term solution: Stop making red wine and start making barleywine B). Much more help about that subject here!

 

[Cortez The Killer]

I made wine last year - notes are here - http://hyperfox.info/wine.htm

Not making it this year - I think 400 litres was a little bit much - especially when there's beer to be drunk :chug:
I've gotta bottle another 50 litres this weekend

I gotta admit it came out pretty good - much nicer than most commercial versions

Just like beer making sanitation, no oxidisation are essential

Cheers

 

[alexd74]

Thanks for the prompt replies people!! I love red (plus I have my own grape vines) so I must persist!!! I got a reply from an email to LiquorCraft which confirms my hopes.. that the fermentation has finished, and that .995 is good. Here is the reply:

I think your fermentation has finished.
The following comments are generally applicable
Wine can ferment in less than a week in hot weather
Commercial makers of quality wine would not add sugar to their must
Grapes, if picked when at the correct level of ripeness, have all the sugar required to make wine.
My advice is to continue the process by clearing, racking, adding preservative & getting the wine into bottles or a storage container ASAP. Make sure that the wine is not exposed to air while doing this and when in storage.
Im rather doubtful about the quality of the advice in the books you have.
Regards

So there you go... lets hope it tastes ok! Gotta wait 18 months to find out... bugger.

 

[Airgead]

Alex

I make mead which uses many of the same techniques as winemaking. Personally, I ferment in a demojon right from the start & rack to a second one once fermentation is compeletly finished. Its much easier to keep bugs and stuff out of a demijon rather than an open bucket. Its also less prone to oxidisation (not a problem while fermenting as the co2 produced displaces the 02 but as soon as fermentation stops...). Most mead sources (which are besed on wine sorces so I suspect the advice will be the same) recommend racking 2 or 3 times to ensure clarity. I find that racking that often (unless you add heaps of antioxidants) will cause oxidisation. I now rack just once - from the fermenter to another demijon about 5 days aftyer fermentation finishes. The 5 days gives most of the yeast time to settle out. I leave the second demijon sealed (and when I get my gas bottle for my kegs - purged with co2) for anywhere from 3 months to a couple of years to bulk age before bottling. If you rack carefully from the secondary there is no sediment caried through to the bottles and the mead/wine is crystal clear.

Its also a good idea to keep the wine chilled (cellar temps - 12 degrees or so) during conditioning. Heat and wine don't mix.

Oh yeah.. adding sugar to wine is a no no. No commercial producers do it (not good ones) and I believe its illegal in many wine growing countries. I think Australia is one of them.

Cheers
Dave

 

[tangent]

try to slow the wine ferment down. just like beer, wine yeast gives off unwanted flavours at high ferment temps.
Wine is often fermented with 3xDAP additions. 1. Innoculation 2. Racking and a 3rd during Malo.

Dave's right - sugar is very very wrong in Australian wine.

 

[alexd74]

Hi again,

Once more, thanks to all for the great advice. I am now a little more confident at least that the first wine will be ok, and that it just fermented a little faster than expected due to the humidity and warm temps we had last week.

One thing that I found strange is the conflicting methods used in the 2 books I have, and would love someone to clarify... One book is Australian (which recommends aerobic fermentation for the first 3 or 4 days (ie covered bucket with tea towel to let air in) and the other (from UK) recommends a sealed lid during first fermentation stage (says for 7 days!) (this is the method I used on my first batch and the lid exploded off the bucket after 2 days), so this time I am trying the Australian method. I am worried a bit about oxidisation with this method, but I understand as long as I strain before fermentation finishes (ie after 3 or 4 days?) and move to demijohn, I should be ok?

Thanks also for the advice on sugar. This second batch was 1.080 anyway, I have added 50gm but perhaps I will leave it at that? Does that just mean the first one will be more alcoholic?

So if this is the wrong type of forum for these questions - just seems to be so many more listening to me here!

Alex.

 

[Wortgames]

"open" fermentation is just evil. Bugs love sweet stuff.

You need to use an airlock (bubbler) to let the gas escape. That way you can protect the must from infection but without trapping the carbon dioxide that the yeast produce.

Never 'seal' a vessel unless it's a pressure vessel like a beer or champagne bottle, and even then you need to know what you are doing. Yeast produce a lot of gas.

Congrats on your first bottle bomb by the way

 

[glenos]

I have made a couple of batches of fruit wine, not grapes. I fermented it like I do beer, used a demijohn with an air lock fitted, this excludes air but allows the pressure out.

Let it ferment for a couple of weeks, then racked it, racked again after a month and again a month later.

Cherry wine (Port yeast) was great, not quite enough acid so it did eventually go off (2 years). Nectarine wine (Chardonnay yeast) was OK the girls liked it but not my taste.

There is a fantastic fruit wine site here. Even a recipe for mince wine

I did try some grape wine once, before I started brewing, didn't use an air lock I had it in a cube with the cap screwed up, cube exploded within 24 hours.

 

[alexd74]

Interesting.. Suppose I should try to fit an airlock to my bucket like my beer fermenter. It is just that this Australian wine book insists the aerobic fermentation must be done open and THEN secondary fermentation they call anaerobic fermentation with an airlock fitted....
...actually just found this info from the wine site link you sent glenos (thanks - very comprehensive site):

"Always begin fermentation in a primary, without an airlock, unless specially instructed to begin in a carboy. The inoculate (yeast culture added to the must) needs exposure to oxygen for the first 48-72 hours to assist the yeast in rapid reproduction and increase the population to a density suitable for rapid fermentation. If the must has been sulfited, they need the large surface area to take in the oxygen needed. The top of the primary need only be covered with a clean cloth of tight weave, such as muslin, held in place with an elastic band. If you have a primary with rigid lid drilled for an airlock, use the lid but plug the hole with a ball of cotton for the first few days."

...Well this year I will try both methods and see how they go. (the cotton ball in the airlock sounds like a reasonable safe way to go?)
Thanks again for all the feedback.

 

[Wortgames]

I'd have to say this all sounds very familiar.

One book says this, another book says doing that will result in death.

It's the same in brewing. Sooner or later you just realise that some authors aren't to be trusted.

There may be subtle differences involved between red wine and beer but the essential truths must be the same. Yeast is yeast. Infection is infection.

The first stage in fermentation, when the yeast multiply to colonise the environment, DOES require oxygen. We normally achieve this by aerating the wort before pitching the yeast. I'm sure you could do exactly the same thing with wine must. Just leaving the lid off is a pretty unsophisticated way to go about it. I would try splashing the must into your fermenter, letting it pick up some oxygen, and using a proper airlock on it from day one - but that's just me.

Maybe the author was always lucky, maybe he chose to blame his infections on something else, or maybe he just lived in a friendly environment with no nasty bugs in the air. You need to find a source of information you trust and respect, the science in these hobbies has improved greatly in recent years but there are still some old buggers getting around who swear by virgin sacrifices and eye of newt.

 

[pint of lager]

The Jack Keller site is an excellent resource for wine making. I use it whenever I make fruit wines. Currently have 55 litres of peach wine in plastic, it was strained late last week from the pulp with more sugar added and it will go into glass next week.

Like Wortgames said, there are alot of older style recipes and information out there. For example, you can use lemon juice like the older recipes say, or use citric acid like the modern recipes suggest. Same with adding tea or tannic acid. Vitamin tablets or yeast nutrient.

For the majority of my fruit wines, they have camden tablets or sodium met added for the first 24 hours, then pectinase for the next 24, then yeast is pitched. Plus a dose of yeast nutrient, tannin, citric acid and malic acid.I never open ferment, too many bugs and flying things hanging about. Have never oxygenated the wort prior to pitching dried yeast and they all kick off ok. Airlocks are absolutely essential. After about two weeks, the wine goes into glass with zero headspace. Any topping up is done with wine that has already finished and with flavours that will compliment the wine being made.

When making fruit wines, it is necessary to have enough sugar content to get the alcohol content up. Grapes when picked fully ripe will provide enough natural sugars without any further additions. To judge when they are fully ripe, use your refractometer if you have one. Trouble is, the birds will have already had a field day.

For a new winemaker, adjusting the og by the addition of table sugar is fine. You are making up for the fact that the grapes were not fully ripe.

Make sure if you have a brew sitting in secondary you regularly top up the airlocks which will dry out.

 

[alexd74]

Hi all,
I have put the airlock on the fermenting bucket and filled it with cotton wool for the aerobic stage. The colour is pretty good already so I may strain tomorrow and put it in a demijohn. My question now is - is it too early to rack my first batch? It has only been in the demijohn (finished fermenting) for 5 days but there is a decent amount of sediment.
Thanks,
Alex.

 

[alexd74]

Hi all,
Well I strained the second batch today and guess what - same thing!!! SG is 0.998 (slightly lower than 1st), so again it is finished fermenting (only 5 days?!) - this batch was done under airlock - well for 3 days anyway, and only 50gms of sugar was added before yeast. I am wondering if it is something to do with the type of yeast? It is a red wine yeast from Canada (the only one the home brew shop carries - cant remember the brand - through out the sachet). Seems very coincidental that 2 batches fermented almost the same way... Anyway, looking forward to the results. The second, being on the must for 2 days less is quite a bit lighter in colour - so it looks like I might have 2 quite different wines to enjoy in a year or 2! Anyway, if anyone can shed some light on this quick fermentation I would be appreciated, so I can do things differently next year/next crop!
Thanks again for all your help and suggestions so far.
Regards,
Alex.

 

[Airgead]

Anyway, if anyone can shed some light on this quick fermentation I would be appreciated, so I can do things differently next year/next crop!
Thanks again for all your help and suggestions so far.
Regards,
Alex.

The easiest way to slow down a fermentation is to cool it down. I'm not sure what the temp range of the yeast you are using is but I tend to keep the fermentation at around 16C for meads. Most commercial wineries use temp controlled stainless fermenters these days. If they ferment in a barrel it will be in a cellar at cellar temps (between 10 and 16) rather than room temp.

As yes... as the advice above says - open fermentation is evil. A lot of wine material is pretty old. the science of home brewing has come a long way in the last 20 years and open fermentation shouldn't be recommended any more (tehy used to recommend it for beer as well in the 70s and 80s). I suspect home wine making hasn't really kept up with the advances the beer brewers have made. I'm finding that a lot with mead at the moment so I'm starting from first principles, laerning from commercial brewers (beer and wine) and generally working out what advice makes sense and what doesn't.

Cheers
Dave

 

[alexd74]

Hmm. OK I will try next year. How could this temp be acheived in QLD? Air conditioning? My question about racking? When should I rack the first batch? Also, is it ok to add bentonite to the second batch now that it has finished fermenting?
Thanks,

 

[Airgead]

Alex

I rack my meads a few days after fermentation stops to give the yeast some time to settle out. This reduces the amount of yeast sediment in the secondary. If you are going for a specific winemaking technique like aging on the lees or maliolactic fermentation this may change.

As for temp control - same as for beer. Ferment in a fridge/icebox or use soem other means like aircon or even the old wet towel and fan to keep the temp down.

I've never used bentonite myself. Its a fining agent isn't it? If its finings it should be fine to add to the secondary. You may not need it though. All my meads drop clear in a few months with no finings at all. Wine may be diferent though.

Cheers
Dave

 

[alexd74]

Thanks Dave,
Yes bentonite is a fining agent - seemed to do a nice job on the first batch, which I racked last night. Will leave second batch until the same sort of sediment is there and rack that. Re: fermenting in a fridge/icebox - how do you get the air in/out? Is that a problem?
Alex.

 

[Airgead]

Re: fermenting in a fridge/icebox - how do you get the air in/out? Is that a problem?
Alex.

Doesn't seem to be a problem. I ferment in a temp controlled cool box (ice in one chambe and a thermostat controlled fan blowing cool air into the fermentation chamber) but am moving to a bar fridge for small fermenters and a chest freezer (with temp controller so it doesn't freeze) for larger ones. A lot of people her do the same and don't have problems.

Cheers
Dave

 

[alexd74]

Thanks again,
Looking forward to next years grapes already.