Media coverage: protest re: proposed remote community closures

[Ducatiboy stu]

Great cars to

 

[Dave70]

Apparently have issues with the drink though.

 

[Bridges]

Mynahs are nice birds.

I call BS! Nothing nice about them at all.

Introduced and a pest. Kick native birds from nests and hollows and often don't even go on to use that nesting location, hence one of the most successful pests in the world. From wikipedia "the IUCN Species Survival Commission declared it among the World's 100 worst invasive species."

How did we get back to natives getting evicted by pests?...

 

[manticle]

I call BS! Nothing nice about them at all.

Introduced and a pest. Kick native birds from nests and hollows and often don't even go on to use that nesting location, hence one of the most successful pests in the world. From wikipedia "the IUCN Species Survival Commission declared it among the World's 100 worst invasive species."

How did we get back to natives getting evicted by pests?...

My sarcasm is obviously quite subtle at the moment. I'll turn it up.

 

[TimT]

Reminds me of the old schoolyard joke, "Can you hear this?" (with downturned middle finger) "I'll turn it up then." (You can fill in the blanks).

When it comes to birds there are Mynahs and Miners.

http://www.mdavid.com.au/birds/noisyminerindianmyna.shtml

Maybe you could call them the minor Miner and the major Mynah.

 

[sp0rk]

Great cars to

morris-minor1-fron_1795826b.jpg

You would say that...

 

[pat_00]

You'd feel sorry for yourself if your larynx made your voice sound like a squashed donkey ****** a gen y teen who got their playstation confiscated.

My rational debating skills get thrown out the window when Christopher Whine gets mentioned. I apologise for any aspersions cast.

That description of Pyne's voice is about as close to synesthesia as I will ever get.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Christopher Pyne...The fixer.....I cant believe he is the Minster for Education......

https://youtu.be/Hc9NRwp6fiI

 

[Dave70]

I swear, separated at birth..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc9NRwp6fiI&feature=youtu.be


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQilfrbyDe4

 

[labels]

A lifestyle choice? maybe yes, maybe no.

I read in the newspaper recently that the average cost for supplying infrastructure and services for remote communities is $83,000 per person per year. I am assuming these are for the tiny ones way outback. Infrastructure includes roads, power, garbage collection and many other community services.

If you take into account a lot of these people are on welfare from the cradle to the grave, the cost over a lifetime per person can easily be $8,000,000.00 (Eight million). This is the reason that they want shut the smaller ones down.

How many average persons income tax over a lifetime would it take to pay for just one person in a tiny outback remote community?

 

[manticle]

When they breakdown the average cost, per person (in any and every area of Australia), of infrastructure, power, water, etc then that statistic might make some sense. If one person in remote kimberleys costs x then I have little doubt that as an inhabitant of a major capital city, I cost at least as much. If you shut off power to my home and told me to fend for myself, I'd be somewhat irate.

 

[TimT]

Yeah. I don't think there would be concern if it was just funding for roads, power lines, whatever. Funding for that is fairly uncontroversial. I'd imagine it's the additional money, cradle-to-grave welfare funding essentially, that there are concerns about. Who wants to fund someone to stay jobless forever?

The concern is this is a way of throwing Aboriginal people off their traditional lands. Okay. That is a concern. But bear in mind that these Aboriginal people have lived on those traditional lands for thousands or tens of thousands of years without a single cent in money from any government. How humiliating must it be to think the only way you can continue to live on the land is if you are given welfare assistance for every day of your life?

I guess these are the issues that are going to have to come out in the community negotiations. They'd be interesting meetings to be at.... Hopefully in the end the communities will be able to come to some sort of arrangement - maybe living off the land for a few months while doing work elsewhere, and then returning home.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

A few years back, a whole lot of Aboriginals where forced of their land...... they called them the stolen generation....

 

[manticle]

Tim - the funding they are talking about reducing is not welfare payments, it's for the infrastructure that supplies basic services like power and water. Sure we can expect that our indigenous population either garb themselves in loincloths and face paint or move to melbourne and get a job in accounting but there are avenues in between. Proving a cultural link to the land should not require meeting an arbitary definition somewhere between australopithecus and Amish, nor being left without what the rest of the nation sees as essential services.

 

[manticle]

@labels : Who earns 8 million dollars in welfare* and will stopping running water help people get off welfare?
I might be stupid but how does forcing people off land into the nearest town (or the bus shelter nearest the nearest town) solve a cradle -> grave welfare issue? Do they all get given a carpentry apprenticeship or something?

Think I need a beer mixed with every other type of intoxicant money can buy.

*Considering the average life expectancy of indigenous adult today is about +/-70, that's around 115,000 p/a. You reckon there's a lot of individual welfare recipients on 100+kpa? I assume you meant total cost but how can you include costs of essential services without an average, comparative figure for all citizens?

 

[Feldon]

Given that the ancestors of the people living in these remote communities used own the whole friggin joint, I'd say the dollars spent on their descendants so they retain a cultural link to their country is a very small price to pay.

 

[labels]

Who earns 8 million dollars in welfare and will stopping running water help people get off welfare?
I might be stupid but how does forcing people off land into the nearest town (or the bus shelter nearest the nearest town) solve a cradle/grave welfare issue? Do they all get given a carpentry apprenticeship or something?

Think I need a beer mixed with every other type of intoxicant money can buy.

Don't know the answer, all I stated was the incredible cost involved.

The budget is blowing out and spending must be reduced. Forget all you read from the lefties of how it's only a small deficit when they compare us to the worst countries in the world such Greece, Spain, Italy and so on. Compare us with the best ones instead. Australia's budget deficit is now where Greece was less than five years ago. That's a wake-up call. Australia losing it's AAA+ credit rating and a large budget deficit will affect every citizen and will lower our standard of living and lower it substantially. The current government whether you like them or hate them is doing what it can to do the following (a) lower the budget deficit and (b.) do it without affecting the dismal economic growth we currently have.

And, they are doing a very lot about clawing taxes back from big businesses and corporates as well as wealthy individuals but, everything you read in the media is they are targeting the poor only - not true at all. However, with welfare taking up about half of every tax dollar collected and no end in sight to reign it in, they have got to try. A hostile Senate makes it virtually impossible. I have to say this though, although 99% of people here on this forum think that the Abbott government are hopeless idiots, I see them stuck between a rock and a hard place. They know the consequences of a massive blow-out, Labor and the Greens don't - because they don't have a clue. I know the consequences of an uncontrollable government debt and uncontrolled spending very well - I live in South Australia, nuf said.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

" Hello..Tony, ...its Gina.........yeah im good thanks. ...Look we have a problem, there are some aboriginals that we need moved.......yeah..thats right, for my new mine.........oh great, so you will call the WA premier and get it sorted.....Your a fucken champion mate, I owe you one..."


Hello..WA premier.....Its Tony, ....yeah good thanks. Look Gina has a problem, she needs some aboriginals moved so she can dig the place up......so you think you may have a way.....yeah.......fucken awsome idea...yep...I will back ya, just tell them thats its to expensive and we cant afford their life style choice.....cheers mate"

 

[manticle]

Don't know the answer, all I stated was the incredible cost involved.

The budget is blowing out and spending must be reduced. Forget all you read from the lefties of how it's only a small deficit when they compare us to the worst countries in the world such Greece, Spain, Italy and so on. Compare us with the best ones instead. Australia's budget deficit is now where Greece was less than five years ago. That's a wake-up call. Australia losing it's AAA+ credit rating and a large budget deficit will affect every citizen and will lower our standard of living and lower it substantially. The current government whether you like them or hate them is doing what it can to do the following (a) lower the budget deficit and (b.) do it without affecting the dismal economic growth we currently have.

And, they are doing a very lot about clawing taxes back from big businesses and corporates as well as wealthy individuals but, everything you read in the media is they are targeting the poor only - not true at all. However, with welfare taking up about half of every tax dollar collected and no end in sight to reign it in, they have got to try. A hostile Senate makes it virtually impossible. I have to say this though, although 99% of people here on this forum think that the Abbott government are hopeless idiots, I see them stuck between a rock and a hard place. They know the consequences of a massive blow-out, Labor and the Greens don't - because they don't have a clue. I know the consequences of an uncontrollable government debt and uncontrolled spending very well - I live in South Australia, nuf said.

The 'incredible' cost is only relevant in a context. Where did the statistic come from in the first place?

Economically, we compare favourably to many of the best ones (we are among the best ones) but that aside - please forget lefties and righties and just use reliable sources. There is not one ubiquitious left, nor one ubiquitous right. There's been roughly equal surpluses between lib and lab for sometime (whatever that actually means) and greens, however much you may hate them are one of the few parties to lay out policies and all estimated costs prior to election. Pick a rationale rather than a side.

I would be extremely surprised if closing down a remote community with 5 people in it was going to fix any budget problems we may or may not have and I would be equally surprised if the amount spent on each individual was not more than matched by some government spending mishap/****** on defence/public art/education/tax cuts/younameit (all levels of government from fed to local, bipartisan).

Long story short - this will not save us from an imaginary potential future economic apocalypse but it will absolutely in reality **** over some people you and I have never met (while doing nothing to solve the issues that lead to that potential disaster).

I ask again - forgetting politics or emotion - how does cutting water/power supply to a community reduce the amount of welfare the community receives/ costs? Surely if they are on welfare and have to move, they will move and still get welfare?

If welfare expenditure is important, that answer is important. If it's just cutting costs where they can be cut then how is cutting essential services justifiable in remote communities but not in yours or mine?

 

[labels]

I think too, that a lot (if not most) people on this forum would move from their current location to a new one to find work if there was no chance of work in their current location. I know if I had the opportunity to move and get work OR live of welfare payments - I'd move so why is it then that's okay for us but for everybody? From what I have read, a lot of these remote communities have extremely small populations - like 4 - 6 people, basically just a bush camp. The only problem I am grasping to understand is the cost to the taxpayer is absolutely massive. If we live in a truly democratic country, this should be available to everybody - OH WAIT - I now read that of the remote communities they want shut down, less than half are Aboriginal. Protect them as well?

 

[manticle]

Again mate - it's not about work opportunities - they are basically suggesting cutting off their electricity supply. Even if you forget the cultural/emotional/spiritual/historical connection to a land that was essentially taken and given back in dribs and drabs, would you simply move house/suburb/town/state and get a job somewhere if they switched off all your lights, gas and water? What if you had six kids, were 60 years old or just weren't qualified for much? Wouldn't you at least want to know why or be offered some assistance relocating?

If there were some alternatives in place or at least some consultation, it would be a beginning but it is not merely a bunch of workshy blackfellas being offered a decent job and saying '**** you, I'm entitled'. See the 17-21 yr old capital city dwelling white children for the definition of 'entitled'. I work with some of them (term 'work 'used loosely on their account).

You don't have to agree with me - just question where you get your info from and why you think how you do. Apply the intelligence and critical thinking to this that you apply to lager brewing and if you still think the same way then no drama - not everyone thinks the same given the same information or starting point. I just don't think that what you have said makes total sense but I'm happy to disagree amicably or consider what you have to say if it's based on reality/fact, etc. and shift my own perspective.

 

[Black Devil Dog]

What are the solutions to the high suicide rates, lack of education, lack of jobs, lack of health services, etc in some of these communities?

 

[manticle]

In the communities where those statistics are higher than in the general indigenous population (which by default is higher than general) I'm not sure, but that is exactly the issue that needs to be examined. You don't cut funding to communities that most need it to solve those issues though surely? At least not without a well laid out, transparent plan with clear outcomes and equivalent/greater funding and planning. Those issues are real - how are they best solved?

 

[Black Devil Dog]

Governments have been trying to resolve those issues for decades, it's clearly not an easy fix. Whether or not relocating them is the best option, who knows, I doubt it, and some of them will probably go back there anyway.

 

[manticle]

They're not actually relocating them except by turning off services.
Definitely not an easy fix - just this current attempt is very shortsighted and non communicative.

 

[manticle]

I guess the main question is : even if you accept that all the purported issues are verified, real and relevant, how is the current approach a rational, logical effective, solution?
I feel like blind freddy.

 

[wereprawn]

In the communities where those statistics are higher than in the general indigenous population (which by default is higher than general) I'm not sure, but that is exactly the issue that needs to be examined. You don't cut funding to communities that most need it to solve those issues though surely? At least not without a well laid out, transparent plan with clear outcomes and equivalent/greater funding and planning. Those issues are real - how are they best solved?

Some communities are doing better due to tourism, cattle ect. If there were more tours of aboriginal art and bush tucker gathering ( Not whipping out the 14 foot tinny with the 60 hp Evinrude to hunt dugong, and calling it traditional) , for example, it may help. Unfortunately many aboriginal people in remote communities seem to be caught in the middle ie- not much of a formal education nor experts in traditional skills and knowledge.

 

[manticle]

Exactly why expecting communities to live as they did 10-30,000 years ago today or totally assimiliate is a silly idea.
Allow some control, encourage smart, forward thinking that considers concepts of land, people and culture and involves some consultation with relevant, intelligent, articulate people.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Why not allow them to practice their tradition, but with things like running water, sewerage and electricity.....Can't be that hard...

 

[sponge]

Surely we can just make drug testing mandatory for anyone (excluding those with medical certs etc) on welfare payments.

As a drug-tested tax payer, I would like to know that my tax money isn't just going to buy another crack rock or bag o' smack.

EDIT: The above is in relation to cutting welfare costs, so not completely OT. Just thought I'd clarify my ramblings..