Liquid Yeast - Ok To Pitch Without Starter?

[Franko]

so what then is the ratio of DME to Water to get a sg of 1.025 - 1.030

Franko

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

PM - here's a post from Dr Kristen England that supports the 1.025 rule. It was posted on another forum.

So take your WLP vial and pitch it into say 500ml of 1025-30 starter. People make starters WAY to high in OG. You make it 1025 the only thing you are doing is creating baby yeast. SO...say 3 days or so around 21-24c. Pitch that whole thing into a 2L starter. Few more days...maybe 3 or 4. For both, swirl anytime you can. You should have a good .5-1" of yeast on the bottom of a 2L flask by now which is more than enough yeast. This keeps you from having to do 6.5L starters

Kristen England, Ph.D.
BJCP Continuing Education Director
Master Judge

Cheers, Hoges.

Edit: Post info. Avitar - mashweasel http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic....&highlight=

Cheers Hogan , You saved me a lot of reading :super: I have too many books and so little time for me to reference. Dr Kristen is a highly respected person that knows the stuff and is looked upon as a innovator in the brewing sciences.I must add that Wyeast does have 1040 as the best OG but I cant say why but I will ask.
GB

 

[Zwickel]

.... I just remember (as others also seem to) 1.040 as being the optimal for cell growth, even if you're tossing the starter and just pitching the left over slurry.

Im with Gryphon Brewing, due to the "Crabtree-effect", for a fast cell growth its recommended to keep the sugar content very low.

Sorry, my english is not good enough to explain the crabtree-effect, I only can say, that the higher the sugar content of the solution, the more impermeable the cell membrane will become. In other words, a high sugar concentration is hampering the metabolism of the yeast cell.

just have a look here: http://www.rpi.edu/dept/chem-eng/Biotech-E...n/overload.html

cheers

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

GB, we are hosting Chris White here in Tokyo tomorrow, so I will ask him about it. I have certainly heard that a lower gravity is better for starters because there is less osmotic stress on the yeast and that makes for healthier division. Basically you want the yeast to multiply in as healthy a condition as possible. Plenty of dissolved oxygen and low osmotic pressure makes for healthy yeast. The numbers i have heard are 1040 or below. Never heard 1025, but it might be good under controlled laboratory conditions or something.

You nailed it!>I have certainly heard that a lower gravity is better for starters because there is less osmotic stress on the yeast and that makes for healthier division. Basically you want the yeast to multiply in as healthy a condition as possible. Plenty of dissolved oxygen and low osmotic pressure makes for healthy yeast. The numbers i have heard are 1040 or below. Never heard 1025, but it might be good > Read Hogans post by Dr Kristen.
Cheers GB

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Im with Gryphon Brewing, due to the "Crabtree-effect", for a fast cell growth its recommended to keep the sugar content very low.

Sorry, my english is not good enough to explain the crabtree-effect, I only can say, that the higher the sugar content of the solution, the more impermeable the cell membrane will become. In other words, a high sugar concentration is hampering the metabolism of the yeast cell.

just have a look here: http://www.rpi.edu/dept/chem-eng/Biotech-E...n/overload.html

cheers

Hi Zwickel, No bodies English/German is good enough to explain the Crab Tree effect in simple terms. B) Yes what you say is very relevant to the point of low SG starters.It also explains stuck fermentations on high OG brews.The yeast just doesnt like it .
Cheers GB

 

[PostModern]

Kristen England, Ph.D.
BJCP Continuing Education Director
Master Judge

Didn't some clown sign up here as a "BJCP Continuing Education Director" and eventually leave because he spoke so much crap? Not saying it's the same bloke....

Im with Gryphon Brewing, due to the "Crabtree-effect", for a fast cell growth its recommended to keep the sugar content very low.

Sorry, my english is not good enough to explain the crabtree-effect, I only can say, that the higher the sugar content of the solution, the more impermeable the cell membrane will become. In other words, a high sugar concentration is hampering the metabolism of the yeast cell.

just have a look here: http://www.rpi.edu/dept/chem-eng/Biotech-E...n/overload.html

cheers

Cheers Zwickel.

My thoughts on it were that if you pitched a tube of WLP001 into 1-2 litres of 1.025 wort they would ferment everything out without so much as doubling their numbers. More sugar + O2 gives them more material to build new cells. Too little sugar and they'd be heading for the bottom in a couple hours.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

.

My thoughts on it were that if you pitched a tube of WLP001 into 1-2 litres of 1.025 wort they would ferment everything out without so much as doubling their numbers. More sugar + O2 gives them more material to build new cells. Too little sugar and they'd be heading for the bottom in a couple hours.

PM any reference to your thoughts ? I think that what has been put forward would educate the forum contrary to your example.We are talking yeast growth bio mass not fermentation.
GB

 

[warrenlw63]

sure its been discussed before, but I only got a few mins, and am starting the brew tomorrow morning!

I'm using the WLP001 yeast for a 52L batch of the little creatures bright ale clone. I obviously don't have time to make a starter by tomorrow morning, so is it ok to pitch the whole vile of liquid yeast straight in?

Also, the recipe includes irish moss. Not exactly sure what this is, and I dont have it.. will it make a difference. Thanks for any help



edit: bright ale, not pale

Captaincleanoff... Ask a question in this regard and as you've probably noted you'll receive answers telling you how to reinvent the wheel... I'd follow Steve's instructions which pretty much pertain to Whitelab's. It will make for a happier ending for your beer.

Not saying the alternatives are wrong as I've not tried them (ie; 1.025 starters) but to me they're merely adding a step to the process that you're probably not looking for given your situation.

From Whitelab's FAQs.

How do I make a "starter"?

A "starter" can be any volume of wort that you add yeast to before using it to make your beer. The yeast get active in this smaller volume, usually for 1-2 days, and then can be added to 5 gallons of beer, or 10 gallons, or whatever size your brewing. This can be a good way to "proof" the yeast, and also when making high gravity beers. White Labs recommends on their label to make a starter "if the gravity is over 1.070, if the yeast is past its "best before" date, or if a faster start is desired."
Procedure:
Make up a 1-2 pint wort, gravity ~1.040, hopped as normal. Boil for 30 minutes, cool to room temperature. Pitch one vial, shake well and let sit for 1-2 days. Little to no activity will be seen in the starter, since this is a very small volume compared to the quantity of yeast pitched. The yeast in a starter may be done within a couple of hours. But a layer of yeast should be at the bottom after 1-2 days. The wort on top of the yeast can be either decanted of the top, or left in and pitched with the whole volume. Most pitch the whole volume, but if the starter gets to the point of 2 liters for 5 gallons, then we recommend decanting the wort off the yeast.
Typical Starter Volumes for 5 gallons:
To activate the yeast: 1 pint
To regenerate expired yeast (there will be living yeast in the package for ~1 year): 2 pints
To brew a high gravity beer: 2 pints
To brew a lager beer, starting fermentation 50-55F: 4 pints



Warren -

 

[PostModern]

PM any reference to your thoughts ? I think that what has been put forward would educate the forum contrary to your example.We are talking yeast growth bio mass not fermentation.
GB

Not at all GB. I'm very uneducated when it comes to yeast.

My naive understanding is (was) that the yeast will reproduce until they have the numbers to ferment the wort they're in. Pitching a vial made for 21L of 1.050 or so wort into 1 litre of 1.025, I thought, would lead to all the sugars being consumed and made into ethanol then the yest dozing off... it is clear I have a lot to learn. I can see where pitching a very small number of cells into the same wort would lead to reproduction. Anyway, as I said, yeast life cycle is not my forte.

 

[Gulf Brewery]

Not at all GB. I'm very uneducated when it comes to yeast.

My naive understanding is (was) that the yeast will reproduce until they have the numbers to ferment the wort they're in. Pitching a vial made for 21L of 1.050 or so wort into 1 litre of 1.025, I thought, would lead to all the sugars being consumed and made into ethanol then the yest dozing off... it is clear I have a lot to learn. I can see where pitching a very small number of cells into the same wort would lead to reproduction. Anyway, as I said, yeast life cycle is not my forte.

You need a few degrees and several life times to fully understand yeast PoMo, so don't feel too bad :lol:
To put it simply, making a starter gets the yeast from a dormant to active state and starts them multiplying. When you get to pitch them into the actual batch, there are more of them already and they are healthier (lots of info on cell walls, oxygen etc etc out there if you want to waste a day reading). They can multiply to the required number quicker and this gives them a head start over any wild yeast or bacteria in the wort - reduces lag times and should result in a better ferment.

Cheers
Pedro

 

[Guest Lurker]

Yeah, but you have to focus on the original question. If you have 24 hrs before pitching, will you get a better beer by pitching the tube into a 1.025 or a 1.040 starter? Given you dont have time to step it up, I personally would go 1.040, after considering the balance of factors that come into play including 1) although the yeast will maybe not be quite as healthy, there will be a lot more of them, 2) you will be sure they will be in reproductive mode when pitched and 3) you wont have time to decant the yeast and will have to pitch the whole starter, and 1.040 isnt going to dilute your wort as badly as 1.025. Anyway, it is clear from the various reponses that yes you will get a better beer if you make a starter, it needs to be DME and you should make it somewhere between 1.025 and 1.040.

 

[Gulf Brewery]

Hi

You can pitch the tube straight into 20 litres, but a starter is a better way. Even though you don't have enough time to kick off a fully active starter, it still would be good to get the yeast multiplying and growing before pitching into your wort.

If you can, get a starter going 2 or 3 days before your batch.

Cheers
Pedro

Yeah, but you have to focus on the original question.

I thought I did in my original reply B)

As for the SG of the starter - I have always used 1.040 as per the white labs instructions. You don't want to make a 1.025 starter and then pitch it into a much higher gravity beer - 1.040 seems like a reasonable compromise of starter SG and wort SG.

Cheers
Pedro

 

[captaincleanoff]

ok... I pitched a 1litre of the yeast yesterday... and I'm not seeing any action.

I used the yeast with 100g dextrose, 1l water, and and let the starter go for a bit over 24 hours. Pitched 500mls into each fermenter yesterday, and I'm still on the OG...

wort still tastes and smells great.. just no action.. you guys think it still could happen?

 

[Hogan]

ok... I pitched a 1litre of the yeast yesterday... and I'm not seeing any action.

I used the yeast with 100g dextrose, 1l water, and and let the starter go for a bit over 24 hours. Pitched 500mls into each fermenter yesterday, and I'm still on the OG...

wort still tastes and smells great.. just no action.. you guys think it still could happen?

It definitely won't happen if you used Dextrose as your starter base.


Cheers, Hoges.

 

[captaincleanoff]

cant believe i said that again.. i meant malt! i dont know why i keep saying dextrose! i used malt

 

[Stuster]

It should still happen. You've underpitched (sent too few yeasties into action) so it might take a while for them to get going. Give it till tomorrow afternoon at least. What temp was the fermenter at BTW? Low temps will mean slower fermentation as well.

 

[Steve Lacey]

So I asked Chris White about starter gravity yesterday and he said that 1040 was fine. This is not to invalidate what anybody has said about higher concentrations of sugar being bad news for starters (or yeast health in general). They are. But 1040 is not high enough to be a problem, while 1025, as some have said, isn't going to give you as much yeast reproduction. He saw no reason or was not aware of any school of thought that puts 1025 as optimal. I suggested that maybe it is a lower limit that somebody somewhere has misconstrued to mean optimal and he agreed that that might be the case.

Another thing to remember (nothing to do with anything Chris said) is that the starter is usually a bit small to go taking a gravity reading. But if you measure out your 100g malt to 1 L of water, then boil for 20 or 30 minutes, you will increase the gravity through the evaporation of the boil. So sometimes I add a smidgen more water or a dash less malt to account for that.

Franko asked what the ratio of malt to water is for 1025. The answer is about 65 grams DME to 1 L of water (not allowing for evaporation). But I honestly think that you are better going for 80 to 90 grams, which with evaporation will give you something pretty close to a 1.040 starter.

 

[captaincleanoff]

was very relieved to find both of the fermenters bubbling this morning, was getting a bit worried! Stuster, got it at 19c