How badly did I mess up?

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jkeysers

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Evening lads.

Been out of brewing for a LONG time. Must be 4 or 5 years now. Thought it was high time I got back on board, so yesterday I went down to the LHBS and brought some basic supplies, and kits to do 4 brews. 1x ESB Belgian Golden Ale 5 litre FWK, 1x Draught Can with brew enhancer with Saaz hops (for the visitors), 1x Pilsner Can with 500g Dextrose and 500g malt extract and 1x cider kit with 1kg dextrose for the Mrs.

Today was brew day, so I decided to do the Golden Ale FWK and the cider. I was a little rusty, but it was pretty basic really, how badly could I mess up? Well, quite a bit it seems! lol

I did everything on autopilot. Got to pitching stage, and I took SG readings on both the cider and Golden Ale. The cider seems about right; 1.042. But the Golden Ale seemed VERY high; 1.070! Whoa. I've never done one of these smaller, 5 litre FWKs before. Done lots of the 15L ones, but never a 5 litre one. Maybe it's just strong I thought? I pitched a satchet of Safale S-04 yeast (and the cider kit yeast), and started packing up. I was putting my other kits away when it hit me..... For some stupid reason I put in the dextrose and malt from the Pilsner kit in with the FWK. Don't ask me why, I have no idea! I think because it was only a 5L FWK, it's closer in amount to a normal can than it is to the 15L FWKs I'm used to, so without thinking I just added the extra fermentables. Hence the very high starting gravity.

My question is, have I stuffed it? If yes, can I do anything to improve it? If no, will it taste any good? Will the yeast be able to handle all that?

My initial thought was to open it up and add some more water, but I've used my small fermenter which has around 22-23L capacity. The FWK said it makes 18L, and my fermenter is up to about 20L. I really don't have much room to add more water, and I'm not sure about opening a fermenter once I've pitched the yeast.

The good news is I have a little more water in there than I should, but that's a lot of fermentables in there.

So, I'm looking for some advice or reassurance. Can anyone offer any?

Anyway, despite the f**k up, it was good to be back out there doing some brewing again. Not looking forward to waiting for it!

Cheers guys.
 
+1

Another pack of S04 and it should be fine. It'll probably end up around 7% though so not a session beer.
 
for what its worth I have done the esb belgian 5l kit before and it started in the the high 1060's for me once i added the candi sugar . 1068 I think from memeory , probably have it written down somehwere
 
Thanks for the replies guys. Haven't take a reading using the hydrometer yet, will probably do that tonight or tomorrow. But I can definitely smell that something's fermenting. I was thinking that given the high starting gravity I might give it a little more time to ferment rather than the usual 7-8 days.

I've managed to keep the ambient temperature of the room the fermenter is in between 17.5 and 19 degrees (maybe 1 or 2 degrees warmer than ideal, although I've had wet towels around the fermenters most of that time).

As I said, I've been out of brewing for quite some time. I was doing some reading around and have seen people talking about increasing the temperature of the brew for 48-72 hours when fermentation is nearly complete, before cold crashing the lot. This is something I never used to do, is this a newish idea? I don't have the means to measure the temp inside the fermenter, just the room. What should I be looking to increase room temperature to, and for how long? I was thinking I might push room temperature up to 19.5 - 20 degrees, remove the wet towels, and try and maintain that temperature for 2 days. Then chuck the fermenters in the fridge and drop to ~1-2 degrees and leave for 10-14 days before kegging and carbing. Sound about right?

Would the same rules apply for both my Golden Ale and my Cider?

Thanks heaps for the help guys. Slowly getting back into this. Can't wait to try them!
 
I don't know if raising the temp near the end of fermentation is a newish idea or not, but it is something I also do. I have the convenience of a temp controlled fridge, which makes things really easy. For ales, I normally ferment at 18 for about 4-5 days, then raise my temp controller to about 20-21, and let it come up on its own. Once it hits FG I leave it another 2-3 days at the warmer temp then drop it to 0 for a week or two before bottling. I do the same with lagers, except start the ferment about 10-11, and raise the temp to 19 when it has more than half way fermented. After that, same process although I give them a minimum 2 weeks at 0 before bottling.

I think your idea is pretty much the same as my process so it should work pretty well i reckon.

Cold crashing I highly doubt is a newish idea, for home brewing perhaps but not overall. It's a lager technique but it is handy for ales as well. If you are the type to add finings to your beer, the cold crashing stage is the time to do this as well.
 
Thanks Rocker.

With the temps you list, is that the brew temp or the ambient temp in the fridge? I'm guessing seeing as you have the temp controller, thats the ambient fridge temp? What temp controller do you have out of curiosity?

It's been in there 5 days at ~18, so when I get home I might open up the heater vent in the room and allow the room to get to 20-21 for 24 hours, then close it again for another 2 days. Then I'll chuck it all in the fridge and drop the temp as close to 0 as I can. Cold crashing isn't new, I always used to do that!
:)
 
With a beer of that gravity I would allow at least 14 days ferment before cold crashing. You are likely to get a fair bit of acetyl aldehyde (green apple) unless the yeast is given a good opportunity to clean out the undesirables from the fermenting party.
 
Brew temp, or at least as accurately as I can get to that. I tape the temp probe to the side of the FV underneath a couple of layers of packing foam to insulate it. From testing it by measuring SG samples against what the temp controller reads, it's pretty bloody close. I have an STC-1000 temp controller.

It's a waste of time measuring the ambient air IMHO, because the temp of the actual brew will vary relative to ambient depending on what stage of fermentation its at. Fermentation creates is own heat, so the brew can be 2-3 degrees higher than the ambient at its most active stage. As it slows down and eventually stops, the amount of heat produces slows down and eventually stops in line with this. In your situation you probably don't have a lot of choice, however if you were using a fridge, the method I describe above is much better.

I'd also be inclined to give this brew more time before cold crashing it for reasons Droopy Brew mentioned.
 
Just in relation to that, taping the temp probe to the side of the fermenter, how accurate is this as a representation of wort temperature? My fermenters are always quite cool to the touch. Last night I tried what you suggested. I taped my digital thermometer probe directly to the side of the fermenter, with a layer of foam packing between it and the open air. Ie. It goes;
wort/beer | fermenter wall | digital thermometer probe | 2 layers packing foam film stuff | sticky tape | open air (ambient room temperature around 22 degrees according to readings taken before taping it to fermenter).

The thermometer when taped like this was reading 17 degrees in the few minutes before I went to bed. It still looked to be dropping too. I'm not sure if the plastic walls of the fermenter are an accurate representation of the inside temp? Didn't seem to be that way for me.

I had just not long before moved the fermenters from a much cooler room (bathroom, around 17 degrees ambient), so it's possible the fermenter itself was still holding the cooler temps from there. Not sure.

It's all a bit tricky trying to get the temps right! I've just purchased a reptile heater mat and cheap chinese digital temp controller from ebay. So hopefully from now on I can just do it all in the fridge and maintain a steady 17 degrees for the first 5-7 days, 19-20 degrees for 2 days then cold crash. All without busting my arse carting these heavy things around trying to get the right temps all the time!
:)
 
I think because the probe is insulated under foam, the outside of the fermenter at that point isn't exposed anywhere near as much to the ambient temperature, so it does give a pretty accurate indication of the temp of the liquid on the other side. From measuring my SG samples with a decent probe thermometer, they are regularly within 0.5C of what the temp controller is saying. That's good enough for me. I also calibrate my temp controller probe regularly against the thermometer to ensure the temps are as accurate as I can get them. It would be interesting to put a thermometer inside the fridge at the same time and see what the difference is though.

I think you've answered your own question in a roundabout way there. If you had not long removed the fermenters from a cooler environment then no they would not have warmed up much. Liquid takes longer than air to change temperature, and if you have 20 odd litres of it, it will take a number of hours to come up to the warmer temp (or drop to a lower temp). I'd say the temp controller was pretty well on the money there. What was it reading this morning?

You'll find a fridge will indeed make things much easier! One of the best things I did for my brewing was to start using a fridge, luckily in my case it was already here, just not being used for anything. Depending on the time of year you won't necessarily need a heat source in it - at this time of year down there I'd imagine you would though. I'm in Brisbane and can get away with not using heat in my fridge, although I do brew lagers in winter as well which are fermented lower anyway.
 
Thanks Rocker. I appreciate you pateince with me and detailed responses! To answer your question, I stupidly forgot to check the temp before going to work this morning. Will check it when I get home.
:)

Just for the record, gravity last night was 1.008 on the cider, so it's done, should come in about right at ~4.4%. The Golden Ale is still quite high at 1.020. So 6.25% and, I suspect, still climbing. I reckon moving it to the warmer room (and the little bit of disturbance moving it would cause) will yield a little more action. Gonna be a big beer.

Both tasted quite nice. although th Golden Ale has a stronger flavour than I intended. Can't imagine why! lol
 
No worries :) I'd imagine the temp would have come up to the 22 of the room by now.

Did you pitch an extra pack of yeast to the golden ale batch? That S-04 seemingly has a reputation of stalling before it finishes fermenting fully. I suspect this is why I ended up with a couple of bottle bombs on the last batch I used it on, and the rest of them are way overcarbed. Hopefully the warmer temp and bit of disturbance by moving the fermenter will help it keep going until it completes the fermentation properly.

:lol: Well at least the muck up didn't make it terrible.
 
The digital thermometer is now reading 21.0 when stuck to the side of the cider fermenter (which I believe is finished and am about to cold crash), 21.7 when stuck to the side of the Golden Ale fermenter (which I think is still going) and 23.2 in the open ambient air near the 2 fermenters. Both fermenters still feel cool to the touch. They're probably a degree warmer than they should be, but hopefully they'll be OK.

I did pitch an extra packet of yeast, it wasn't S04 though as I didn't have any here. Not ideal but it couldn't be helped. At any rate, despite the stuff up I think both will be good. That Golden Ale might catch a few people unawares.
:)
 
They'll be fine. It's the first few days of fermentation that are the most important regarding keeping the temperature constant. Not that you want to just let it go wherever it wants after a few days but yeah. Even if you'd fermented at 20 or 21 they'd be ok as long as it was constant. Wildly fluctuating temperatures are what you want to avoid, which you have, so no issues there. Your body temperature is about 37 degrees, touching something that's sitting 16 or 17 degrees lower than this is always going to feel cool to the touch. ;)

Cool, yeah it should be alright. It's a pretty strong beer so any flavour issues might be better hidden than they would be in a lower strength beer. Especially after downing 3 or 4 of them! :lol:
 
Had the fermenter in a warm room (near the fireplace) for the last few days. Had temp probe stuck to side of fermenter as per above and have managed to keep the temperature between about 20-21.5 degrees.

Taken another gravity reading tonight, and it's fallen ever so slightly (if at all, hard to tell exactly) to around 1.019. So that's 0.001 in the last 3 days, that's if my eyes aren't deceiving me which is a strong possibility.

I just gave the fermenter a very slight swirl. If it hasn't done much in the next 24 hours, I guess I just cold crash it? Is a FG of 1.019 too high?

I can stlll taste a little sweetness there as if it's not quite finished, but not sure what more I can do. Yeast has now been in there 11.5 days. Don't wanna leave it too long or it can cause problems with flavours. Do I just give it more time in the warm room? Do i increase the temperature a in the room little more? Cold crash, keg and be damned? Thoughts?
 
You can leave it longer, it won't cause any problems with flavour, unless you left it for months or something. I used to leave my lagers in the primary for up to 10 weeks with no flavour issues at all. And that is a style that you will more easily notice any off flavours because there isn't as much to cover them up.

It's hard to say whether it's done or not really. A beer of that OG you wouldn't expect to get much lower than where it is at I wouldn't think. I'd give it a few more days or maybe even a week longer, just to make sure it's done and also give the yeast time to clean up. You could increase the temperature a little without causing any flavour issues.

I suppose if you did keg it, keep it cold to prevent the yeast from re-awakening and finishing off the fermentation - if in fact, it's not actually finished. It may well be done though.
 
I was under the impression that if I left it on the yeast cake too long I'd get autolysis and off flavours. Just reading around a bit, seems that this is another point of home brewing that has somewhat changed in the 5 years or so since I last brewed. lol

That being the case, I will give it until at least Sunday where it is currently sitting (around 20-21 degrees). Then it will have been there 2 weeks, with a week at the warmer temperature to finish things up. I was hoping it'd get down to 1.015 or 1.016. I'll see what the next few days bring.

Thanks again Rocker!
:)
 
Yeah... I think that's one of those things, it can happen but it is highly unlikely to over the space of a month or two. Certainly not in two weeks. All my ales get 2-3 weeks in the FV before bottling. Lagers I only give 4 weeks now, but that's not for autolysis reasons, I just don't like waiting 3 months for something that at least from early taste tests, doesn't need that long. I wouldn't leave a brew on the yeast cake for say, 6 months though.

Yep, that's about all you can really do hey. Hopefully it drops a bit further down to where you are wanting it! Anyway no dramas and keep us updated on how it goes. :)
 
btrots87 said:
+1

Another pack of S04 and it should be fine. It'll probably end up around 7% though so not a session beer.
Why not? :beerbang:
 
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