Hop Rhizomes

[t2000kw]

Saaz? really? I didn't think that we had any Saaz in this country due to quarantine laws.
is it perhaps another variety being sold under the Saaz name?

BTW, the herbicide's name is Glyphosate, not Glyphosphate. Commonly used to spray and destroy large illegal Cannabis and Coca crops in the southern Americas.

Saaz, if it is real Czech Saaz, is a hop I'd like to grow. Can anyone document the authenticity of this hop variety?

I'll be here waiting

You're right about the spelling on the Roundup chemical. It does seem to have an alternate spelling, glyphosphate, but the most widely used term is glyphosate:

http://www.chemindustry.com/chemicals/555980.html
http://home.howstuffworks.com/question357.htm

But I just misread the label when I read it very quickly and added the "ph" to it, not knowing that the alternate spelling existed. Those are probably somewhat accepted because of the same common mistake I made, and if enough people use a spelling or a definition of a word, it eventually becomes acceptable, even if it's wrong. (Like the noun "impact," which seems to be acceptable now to use as a verb meaning "effect.")

The Monsanto company was caught falsifying data and information about the safety of the chemical. They did sloppy work in their reporting:

"an EPA reviewer stated after finding "routine falsification of data" that it was "hard to believe the scientific integrity of the studies when they said they took specimens of the uterus from male rabbits".
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundup)

I didn't know that male rabbits had a uterus. :wacko:


Roundup works well for me but I try to minimize it's use on my property. Same for picloram (Tordon).

As for Saaz, I would have no idea which hops might be prohibited from being imported in Australia. I thought Saaz would be available there since it is in the US. It doesn't do as well as the Saaz hybrids like Tettnanger here. You may have some other "Saaz substitutes" available there, but some will say that there is no real substitute for Saaz. Tettnang grows better here. The "US Saaz" is, I believe the same as the Czech Saaz. But you get slightly different results for some hops when moved to a different region of tht world.

I know you can get Tettnang(er) there. Sterling, Crystal, Ultra are claimed to be close, and Hallertauer and Mt Hood are mentioned in a few places, but I think they are further away in their actual flavor/aroma profile. At some point you cross reference a substitute for a substitute and you end up getting pretty far away from the original hop.

I have second-year Crystal, which is doing well enough this year to probably give me enough hops to make beer with. Tomorrow I will be bringing a large upright freezer home (a giveaway from a friend) so I can use my smaller freezer for making lagers again, and I will try the Crystal in a Pilsner Urquell clone and see how well it does. I also have first-year Saaz and Tettnanger, which probably won't do much this year. I don't expect much from the Saaz in any case, but someone gave me the rhizomes to try. I expect Tettnanger to do well next year. My Saaz is replacing the Sterling I just removed since it wasn't doing as well as I had hoped.

Has anyone here used Canadian Redvine in a beer? I can get some of this for free next year but I am not sure it's worth getting rid of another hop for it since it's cohumulone content is very high. That would mean that the flavor would be rather harsh.

If you are not able to import Saaz with a simple order from outside the country, is there a way you can get them through an official channel through customs, with an inspection certificate or something? If you cold, and if there's enough interest there, maybe you could get a group purchase and split the extra cost of the legal formalities.

 

[t2000kw]

I've already planted a couple of rhizomes in pots and am keeping them in one of those cheap plastic coldframe/greenhouses.

Don't know if it's the right thing to do for hops as this is my first season with them, but I know it works well with other frost intolerant plants to give them a headstart for spring.

I've done this for years with various plants that struggle to fruit before the end of of the season down here in Melbourne.

Be careful when transplanting them. It's possible that they will grow quickly and have thin and weak bines. In any case, it's very easy to break the bines when transplanting. If you kink a bine, you can ignore it or make a splint for it. They don't seem to care as long as there's no tear or cut, if you straighten it out somewhat. You can tie it to another bine next to it as your splint.

I started some indoors and had that problem. I lost one of my plants when I broke the bine off but the rest did well.

 

[altone]

Be careful when transplanting them. It's possible that they will grow quickly and have thin and weak bines. In any case, it's very easy to break the bines when transplanting. If you kink a bine, you can ignore it or make a splint for it. They don't seem to care as long as there's no tear or cut, if you straighten it out somewhat. You can tie it to another bine next to it as your splint.

I started some indoors and had that problem. I lost one of my plants when I broke the bine off but the rest did well.

Thanks t2000kw, I'm keeping the frame open all day to keep the temp down, just closing at night to protect them from possible frost.
I was hoping that doing this, they wouldn't shoot bines early but just get a bit of extra root growth happening.

If the bines do take off, I might try planting the biggest one in the ground early and build it a shelter and lots of mulch.
Because they will be in a partially protected area anyway, frosts would only affect the ground surface I'd expect.

The others, I'll just be extra careful when transplanting in Spring.

 

[HoppingMad]

Saaz? really? I didn't think that we had any Saaz in this country due to quarantine laws.
is it perhaps another variety being sold under the Saaz name?

Saaz, if it is real Czech Saaz, is a hop I'd like to grow. Can anyone document the authenticity of this hop variety?

I'll be here waiting

Funny you guys should be talking about Saaz in Australia. Saw these rhizomes on ebay claiming to be Saaz.
Ebay Saaz? Or something else?

NZ B Saaz perhaps I'm thinking? (also called Belgian Saaz or Motueka?) Can't be the czech surely. Have heard the NZ ones really don't come up as nicely as the real deal.

Info on Motueka and their Saaz parentage here: B Saaz/Motueka

Hopper.

 

[Quintrex]

Funny you guys should be talking about Saaz in Australia. Saw these rhizomes on ebay claiming to be Saaz.
Ebay Saaz? Or something else?

NZ B Saaz perhaps I'm thinking? (also called Belgian Saaz or Motueka?) Can't be the czech surely. Have heard the NZ ones really don't come up as nicely as the real deal.

Info on Motueka and their Saaz parentage here: B Saaz/Motueka

Hopper.

Saaz is around, not that I have access to it.
I've heard saaz is probably one of the hardest varieties to grow. Has to have perfect daylight length/weather to flower.
It's apparently very fussy.

Q

 

[pdilley]

I'm not familiar with the temperatures down under this time of year, but if it doesn't freeze, it should be OK. They are actually frost tolerant and a bit freeze tolerant, at least the above ground parts.

Here in the US, people generally plant them in the spring, the "best" time. If they plant it in late summer, they don't expect a harvest but it will grow the root/rhizome system. The longer the growing period, the better it will do the next season.

In your case, don't expect much out of it until the days get longer, like in the springtime. If it does anything, even a little growth, that's good for the underground part of the hop plant.

Hopefully, your hop will do fine. Generally, they do better in the ground than in pots, and if they are in pots, pots in the ground should do better than above ground since they will keep watered better.

If you decide you want to grow hops, save your money and get smaller rhizomes from a commercial source other than eBay. You got a really healthy looking rhizome that will probably do very well much faster than a small one, and these DO cost considerably more than small ones, but in the US at least, we can get rhizomes for less than USD $6.00. Some sources are in our links section of GrowHops.

Chinook, Pride of Ringwood, Cluster, Goldings, Hallertau, Hersbrucker, Mount Hood, Nugget, Perle, Precoce dBourgogne, Tettnang, Willamette, Wuerttemberger

I have never heard of Wuerttemberger and Precoce dBourgogne, but you have some varieties in Australia that we don't have here. Same for Pride of Ringwood except aht I have heard of that one.

POR is pretty much all Myrcene at 37.5% of total oil with only 5.5% Humulene, 7.5% Caryophyllene and 0.5% Farnrese with one of the largest %'s of any hop in the other hydrocarbons so you are only missing out on what was once one of the most bitter hops. A cross between wild a Tasmanian hop and Pride of Kent released in '65. Compared to what you are used to in the States, you'd most likely think it coarse.

Australia has some recently stringent import restrictions, too many cane beetle and toad incidents so its not like they can buy rhizomes at will and have them shipped in.

LHBS shops (canberra) rhizome prices are $11 AUD for decently sized rhizomes. For comparrison they pay 15-16 for 1 Gallon glass fermenters here and $5 a packet of dried yeast or more. A lot of plastic in the brewing gear here as well in most brewing stores. A lot of the population here is in the south (your north) which is in the propoer zones for growing hops. Natural rain water can be an issue but supplemental watering takes care of thay. Here you have to watch out for a heat wave in summer that can turn the leaves crispy if you don't compensate. The sun is harsher here than back in the States both in UV and relative brightness. Supplented and during vigorous growth--having their water supply matching they grow like weeds. Lost almost my entire veggie garden to the local heatwave as I recently moved here and was not expecting it.

Thanks for the links, Im sure it will help some get more information on hops in general.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete

 

[Weizguy]

Les,
I think you will find that t2000kw is in the USA not Australia.

yeah, but there are alleged Saaz rhizomes on eBait in Oz at the moment, as posted above.

like I said...real or fake?

 

[t2000kw]

Funny you guys should be talking about Saaz in Australia. Saw these rhizomes on ebay claiming to be Saaz.
Ebay Saaz? Or something else?

NZ B Saaz perhaps I'm thinking? (also called Belgian Saaz or Motueka?) Can't be the czech surely. Have heard the NZ ones really don't come up as nicely as the real deal.

My understanding is that Saaz is Saaz, but when it's moved to the USA, it doesn't grow as well. Some other hops, when moved from Europe to the USA, are identical genetically, but end up having a somewhat different flavor profile. Sort of like a flower plant we have that has blue flowers in some people's yards and pink in other person's yard. (We know how to manipulate that in our yard to get the color we want.) But if you took the same hop back to Europe, it would be the same as it was before.

There are some landrace hops that have changed a bit, and I'm not referring to those.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Landrace

 

[HoppingMad]

My understanding is that Saaz is Saaz, but when it's moved to the USA, it doesn't grow as well.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Landrace

Apologies t2000kw, but Saaz ain't Saaz Downunder.

We have three cross-bred strains down here of Czech Saaz Parentage (possibly because Saaz grows better in the Northern Hemisphere):

- B Saaz (From New Zealand - Known as Belgian Saaz or Motueka)
- Summer Saaz (a new hop developed in Tasmania and only just being made available in Aussie Beers like Cascade First Harvest)
- Tasmanian Saaz

These three hops are supposed to be quite different in flavour characteristic to the famous Czech Saaz you would taste in say a Pilsener Urquell.

Hopper.

 

[newguy]

I've heard saaz is probably one of the hardest varieties to grow. Has to have perfect daylight length/weather to flower.
It's apparently very fussy.

A guy in my brew club has 2 or 3 saaz plants and another 2 or 3 fuggles. I should take a picture of his yard and post it here. Suffice to say his hops are something to behold. He has no issues with either variety even though Edmonton is out of the ideal latitude range for growing hops (approx 53.5 degrees N latitude). He has told me that he doesn't fuss over them either. I just planted 9 rhizomes this spring; they're all up and doing fine (so far) but they're not up to their full potential since they're so young. No saaz for me yet.

 

[Bizier]

Remember that terroir is incredibly important to brewing hops.

Even if someone had CZ Saaz plants here, they are not going to taste anything like the original thing. Apparently you want a cool, moist climate and mildly clay soils with low nutrients for those 'Noble' type varieties. I think that Tas might have a decent chance of replicating this (though I am unsure of Tassie soils), but most places on the mainland are going to be too hot and dry.

My homegrown Hersbruker tastes much more pungent and lemony and decidedly more American than the German stuff.

 

[jyo]

I've already planted a couple of rhizomes in pots and am keeping them in one of those cheap plastic coldframe/greenhouses.

Don't know if it's the right thing to do for hops as this is my first season with them, but I know it works well with other frost intolerant plants to give them a headstart for spring.

I've done this for years with various plants that struggle to fruit before the end of of the season down here in Melbourne.

In the ground is always best, as they dont like to have 'wet feet'. As long as your soil is well draining, they should do well in the pot. Next Season, wait till winter is almost over, and dig up you precious rhizomes and chuck em in the ground.

We moved house in March, and I had to take my cascade and tettnanger with me....digging them up in march and putting them in pots was the end of them, they got root rot. So dissapointed, as the cascade gave me enough for about 10 brews in the first year....

 

[jyo]

Remember that terroir is incredibly important to brewing hops.

Even if someone had CZ Saaz plants here, they are not going to taste anything like the original thing. Apparently you want a cool, moist climate and mildly clay soils with low nutrients for those 'Noble' type varieties. I think that Tas might have a decent chance of replicating this (though I am unsure of Tassie soils), but most places on the mainland are going to be too hot and dry.

My homegrown Hersbruker tastes much more pungent and lemony and decidedly more American than the German stuff.

I agree, my mate has a hallertau, and the citrus aroma was comparable to his chinook....