"home Brew" Taste

[Nick JD]

Not trying to pick a fight, it just ***** me that every time someone says "you CAN make good beer with a kit" someone always has to jump in with "why dont you go AG"

It ***** me everytime someone is stupid enough to think that small batch Stovetop brewing is anything more than a teaching/learning technique because I usually think people are smarter than that. I'm often wrong though.

The amount of people who have said, "Thank you for solving all those years of **** kit beer" has lead me to believe that if you have the skills to make great kit beer, you're squandering them on kits.

I'm not trying to get anyone to stop making beer from a can, but if you want to get rid of that kit beer taste, the easiest way to do it is to make real beer.

If you think stovetop brewing is a waste of time, then I can't help that - all I can do is teach, suggest and support. You are unusual though because so very many people have found it a wonderful tool in their brewing pregression (almost always to full-sized batches).

 

[roverfj1200]

Well I'm a kit brewer and will never go AG. Don't want to go AG. Happy to just make good kit beer and the odd extract.. I'm sure AG beer is fun to make but I just want to do other things with my time..Each to his own..

Cheers

 

[RdeVjun]

I also skipped all the stove top brewing that I perceive to be a complete waste of time and went right to 3V

Really? That's odd- the prospect of converting to 3V was such a monumental PITA that I stuck with Stovetop BIAB for over two years, couldn't have been happier with the results PLUS the time, money and effort I've saved, while the non- trivial haul of gongs, well I guess that is just the cream on top.

By the time you have pissed about with little pots on a stove you might as well man up and go full scale. Who wants to do all that work for a dozen beers?

Good point, that's why I found a way to squeeze 23L batches out of a 19L pot, its only a small amount of effort for that extra yield while at that point I was just standing around idly picking my nose anyway, so doesn't really take any longer. A 23L- batch All- Grain brewery for under 50 clams had me stoked- you may be surprised to find the number of folks who are chuffed with their Stovetop AG. By the same token its not a cure- all/ panacea and as Nick and others relate it can be an extremely helpful educational tool, but for some brewers it is their end- point and they are more than happy with it. I don't feel that machismo really comes into it though, but if that's what you get out of it, then all power to you.
I moved to AG primarily to get away from the ridiculous expense of extract brewing, that the quality also jumped an order of magnitude or two higher was incidental. However having said that, some partial mashes and even the odd kits and bits beers are amongst some of my most memorable, so using kit extract as an ingredient need not compromise quality at all and that's reinforced by the folks (eg. roverfj1200) who are determined to not convert to AG at all.

 

[Yob]

You are unusual though

well said

 

[manticle]

Be great to help out the OP instead of having another AG vs kit war or casting aspersions on each others' methods.

I agree with almost everything you said Yob, except the suggestion that BIAB and stovetop BIAB is a waste of time. I know you specified 'your' time (and thereby the inference could be taken that you are only talking about your time) but just as your hackles rightfully raise when someone ***** on kit brewing, I reckon there's a lot of people making good beer, and beer they're happy with using methods they are happy with who might find that antagonistic.

People will go AG if they want and when they want and I think that was the most valuable part of your post. You do know how to make good kit beer too.

Now that we've got that out of the way does anybody have any good advice for the OP besides 'change your method of making beer completely'?

Here is an article written by Thirsty Boy which has many good suggestions: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A2j_MO6...en_US&pli=1

Yob's suggestions will also help - I've tried many of his beers and he has, over time, eliminated the kit aspect of his kit beers. Requires some effort but teaches you a lot about the various processes, devlops and understanding of flavour balance etc and is not, in my view, a waste of time.

 

[sgw86]

Be great to help out the OP instead of having another AG vs kit war or casting aspersions on each others' methods.

I agree with almost everything you said Yob, except the suggestion that BIAB and stovetop BIAB is a waste of time. I know you specified 'your' time (and thereby the inference could be taken that you are only talking about your time) but just as your hackles rightfully raise when someone ***** on kit brewing, I reckon there's a lot of people making good beer, and beer they're happy with using methods they are happy with who might find that antagonistic.

People will go AG if they want and when they want and I think that was the most valuable part of your post. You do know how to make good kit beer too.

Now that we've got that out of the way does anybody have any good advice for the OP besides 'change your method of making beer completely'?

Here is an article written by Thirsty Boy which has many good suggestions: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A2j_MO6...en_US&pli=1

Yob's suggestions will also help - I've tried many of his beers and he has, over time, eliminated the kit aspect of his kit beers. Requires some effort but teaches you a lot about the various processes, devlops and understanding of flavour balance etc and is not, in my view, a waste of time.

manticle,

Thank you. Will start to include some of Yob's suggestions into my recipes in the future.I think another valid point was to throw away the yeast that comes with kits and substitue for a proper more premium yeast such as S-23 or US-05 etc.

That document you provided a link for is great! Thanks again mate.

 

[Yob]

dont throw it away mate, throw it in at flame out.... mmmm yeast nutrient...

Its sad that im almost out of kit yeast to do this with and will have to invest in some actual nutrient in the near future.

The humanity

sorry, I should have said about ST and BIAB, "personally saw"

no offence meant to a brewer of any form, many good beers can be made in almost anything, and often are, there are just as many good reasons for doing so, space being a big one.

Brew away people, as long as it's good beer it's GOOD BEER

:beer:

 

[Benchish]

Basic improvements:

Fresh ingredients this goes for everything: the can, hops, malt extract and yeast.

Use the right ingredients, Nottingham will never make a clean lager.

Keep everything as clean and sanitary as possible, including the lip of the can when pouring it out.

Reduce dextrose and sugar usage replace with fresh extract. Liquid extract has a shorter shelf life so buy from somewhere that goes through a lot of it or go for dried extract. Liquid extract has more water by weight so only use 80% to convert to required dried.

Warm rest after fermentation to let the yeast reabsorb byproducts.

and finally some form of temp control

 

[mwd]

Well I may as well put the cat amungst the pidgeons.
I have been doing k&ks for a few years and still have not had many successful brews they all taste homebrewish to me. Of the many only a few have been any better than commercial brews. Note my all time favourite bought brew so far is Punk IPA and thirst quencher JS IPA and cheapo Henninger lager.

Yes I have temperature control, grain steeping and hop additions all off pat and use bought yeasts US-05 etc etc.
Don't think it is brew technique as I can turn out a very tasty Fresh Wort Kit so I tend to blame kits for poor results.

I now do not brew as much as the results are disappointing although toucan stouts are worth drinking. I have a can of Coopers Irish stout waiting to be done.

Having a taste for Punk IPA can be a wallet drain so only reserved for special occasions nights and weekends. :icon_drunk:

Now if I could make a P IPA clone with extract I would be happy as and I do have some Simcoe in stock.

 

[manticle]

In that case, there's a good argument for you to step up to BIAB or any other AG method that suits (but from previous posts, I understand you to be limited with space?)

 

[Nick JD]

Now if I could make a P IPA clone with extract I would be happy as and I do have some Simcoe in stock.

IPAs are one area where extract brewing really works IMO. You are making a malty/hoppy beer where a lot of the flavours get hidden. Big beers favour extract brewing.

Where extract (and kits) fall on their face is making subtle beers - where there's nothing to hide unwanted flavours behind.

An extract Punk IPA would be fully doable. Not exact, but close.

 

[Yob]

Where extract (and kits) fall on their face is making subtle beers - where there's nothing to hide unwanted flavours behind.

:lol: also well said. Will agree it's pretty hard to make just a kit taste good... But frankly, I only ever did that once... then I found this place :drinks:

:icon_cheers:

 

[Fatgodzilla]

You are getting what we lovingly call "the kit twang". Just seems to be a product thing. The only way not to have kit twang is don't use kit beers. However, by adding extra hops you are taking the first step to improving the flavour. I'd recommend a second step and add crystal malts to your beer to add flavours and colour. No mashing, just crush (and you probably don't even really need to do that) and rinse and boil this rinse water before adding to your wort. Eventually learn some "mini mash" techniques (not hard) to go a further step down the track.

Ask your local HBS people for advice on these things. Or find some brewers in your area, raid their supplies and ask them questions.

Kit beers aren't bad beers, just not the best beers. The best chicken soup is made when you cook a real chicken. Kit beers are the equivilent of canned soup - tastes alright, just not like real soup. Savvy ?

Cheers

 

[ekul]

Kit beer always gave me sub par results. If i was starting again (and didn't want to go all grain) i would be using those fresh wort kits. Only slightly more expensive than an extract beer but the result is better tasting.

If you don't want to go the fresh wort route i'd be looking at dumping the kit and just using malt extract. This will give you more control as you control the bitterness levels. Also look at styles that have heaps of flavour, like apas and ipas. The high levels of hopping in these styles will cover up some of that kit taste.

Or do a search for BIAB. All grain beer on an extract budget

 

[sgw86]

Looks like there's a double post of the OP. This one is active, Mods may care to merge the two.

Sorry about the double post. I have been trying to figure out how to delete this one. If the mods don't mind merging please.

 

[sgw86]

People on here talk about Mini Mashes and Partial Mashes. What is the difference between the two? Basically I want to stick with using Extract cans as I am still only 6-7 brews in and stepping up to AG at this point in time makes no sense and I will no doubt be completley lost.

With people talking about hiding the twang taste from the cans I have a recipe that I have slightly modified from the Coopers website.

1 x Thomas Cooper Traditional Draught

1 x 1.5kg Thomas Coopers Light Malt

1 x 20g Cascade Hop Pellets (dry hopped Day 3)

2 x Saflager S-23 Dried Yeast

Now I am guessing with this brew (depending on the freshness of the kit etc.) that there may still be a slight twang to this? Having done little reading up on using grains would I be best adding in some grain to this brew? perhaps 200g of Carapils Malt or some other grain.

Dry hopping 20g Cascade hops, will this do anything in the way of hiding some of that twang?

There are basically three areas that I need some help with

1) Figuring out what Grain to use. How to use it and how much?

2) Hops. What is the general rule of how much to dry hop with? Big fan of having a mild-high hop aroma, though Lagers I am guessing it's better to have a low-mild hop aroma.

3) Hops. Adding Flavour. I do not want to add Bitterness to my brews as I believe the Kit extract cans are already bittered enough. What is the best way to add Flavour from a hop to the beer? Usually I have been steeping 10-12g of hops in a boiling up of water and then just adding the liquid. Is this generally enough to add some flavour from the hops?

Thanks for everyones help so far. Much appreciated.

 

[Yob]

A bog standard House Kit for me would include.

Kit
800g DME
200g Wheat Malt Extract (Lovely Head)
250g Dex Max. (Maybe)
200g Crystal 60 (cracked and steeped at roughly 65-70'c)
150g Carapils (cracked and steeped at roughly 65-70'c)
Specialty Yeast - For me US-05 has treated me well.

Crack the grains and soak in water 65-70'c for 30-60 mins (I like 60)

Strain the grains and rinse with 80'c water.

Depending on boil volume, say 4 lt, add 400g DME, Boil the resulting liquid for 20mins (lightly) add flavour hops when boiling, 10g of hops of choice, at 10 mins to go add another 10g of hops of choice. at 0 min add another 10g of hops of your choice. Leave for 5 mins and strain into fermenter. (or smaller amounts of hops depending on your taste / whatever you have on hand)

add the rest of the ingredients and continue as normal.

At 4-5 days into ferment add 1-2g per liter of hops of choice for a dry hop. allow to ferment out. Leave for 1 more week at 20'c (temps raised slowly toward the end of ferment) then cold condition. If you dont have access to a fridge you may want to consider using a bag to contain the hops... I only ever did once or twice though, it's just 1 more thing to bloody clean.

Temp control is critical for producing a clean tasting beer as is not using the kit yeast for anything but nutrient.

If you havnt got it, get the kit and extract spreadsheet on this forum HERE its a great tool for playing about with and getting to know the processes.

Yob

ed: clarity

 

[Markbeer]

If you buy in bulk it is possible to get DME cheaper and it lasts longer than LME. A sack of 25KG will make 8 brews and will last the 6 months it takes to use up.

But in my mind a fresh wort kit is the best without going AG. Also takes 5 mins or ferment it straight in the cube. Some finishing hops and you have world class beer.

Mark

Kit beer always gave me sub par results. If i was starting again (and didn't want to go all grain) i would be using those fresh wort kits. Only slightly more expensive than an extract beer but the result is better tasting.

If you don't want to go the fresh wort route i'd be looking at dumping the kit and just using malt extract. This will give you more control as you control the bitterness levels. Also look at styles that have heaps of flavour, like apas and ipas. The high levels of hopping in these styles will cover up some of that kit taste.

Or do a search for BIAB. All grain beer on an extract budget

 

[ekul]

People on here talk about Mini Mashes and Partial Mashes. What is the difference between the two? Basically I want to stick with using Extract cans as I am still only 6-7 brews in and stepping up to AG at this point in time makes no sense and I will no doubt be completley lost.

A partial/mini mash is where part of the malt bill of your beer is made up of base malt (grain that needs mashing), and the other part is extract. This method combines the worst parts of all grain and extract. Because you have to do a mash it means that your brew day is going to be just as long as an all grain one, but then the quality of the beer is brought down by using extract. IN saying that a partial mash beer will taste better than a kit beer.BUt if you have to spend a few hours making it you may as well just use a couple extra kilos of base malt and make an all grain beer.

A partial mash is different to steeping grains. Steeping grains will make your kit beers taste better and doesn't take as long as a minimash.

If you think you can cope with a partial mash, then you can cope with all grain, as they are the same except that the partial mash doesn't taste as good and is more expensive.

 

[iralosavic]

I've never seen any fresh wort kits anywhere near the cost of a k&k beer.