Food Grade / Industrial Grade Co2

[balconybrewer]

i know this has been covered before but cant seem to find the thread............... answers or link to old thread much appreciated.

right, i am sick of paying for soda stream refils and want my own 6.8kg bottle. but i dont want to have to travel the country to have it refilled.

as we all know BOC wont fill em so any local food grade CO2 is out of the question. but how different is industrial CO2?????

have i read before that there are alot of industrial users out there?? i guess that is that the fire extinguisher guys are using??

any advice appreciated.

cheers

 

[Stagger]

Its the same gas however the food grade CO2 cylinders are cleaned regularly compared to the Industrial cylinders.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I built a small spreadsheet a while ago to help me decide if it was *cost effective* to go big cylinders from SupaGas over what I currently do. I own two SodaStream cylinders. I priced 10kg and 22kg cylinders because the nice people there assured me that was the way to go. It shows that if you're drinking the equivalent of 3 bottles of beer each and every day of the year, it is cheaper to stay with SodaStream (if you're drinking four, go with 10kg and if you're drinking 20 bottles of brew each day, go with 22kg). However, I find that it is a complete pain in the date maintaining a fleet of full SodaStream bottles because it seems that my usage pattern is completely in sync with when the local Kmarts do not have any in stock, particularly when the local Kmart is more than a half-hour's drive away.

For what it's worth, here's the file. It comes with no warranty.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/styl...s/icon_open.gif

View attachment Gas_Comparison.xls

 

[Fermented]

With most gas (BOC, etc) there are a couple of grades (at least). Generally the difference relates to purity and in some cases minor particulate contamination. Prices rise as the number of nines do (e.g purity = 99%, 99.99%, 99.999%, etc).

You might be wise to get a spec sheet from your prospective CO2 supplier for their range and then pick and choose.

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[LethalCorpse]

With most gas (BOC, etc) there are a couple of grades (at least). Generally the difference relates to purity and in some cases minor particulate contamination. Prices rise as the number of nines do (e.g purity = 99%, 99.99%, 99.999%, etc).

You might be wise to get a spec sheet from your prospective CO2 supplier for their range and then pick and choose.

Cheers - Fermented.

Pretty sure that's been completely debunked by guys who've worked for those suppliers. The food and industrial grade tanks are filled from the same sources., maintained in the same way.

For homebrewing purposes, the difference between those numbers of nines, even if it was a real difference, wouldn't have much of an impact. You're usually only gassing fermented beer which is full of healthy yeast to fight off whatever nasties are living in the gas, and it'll be more sterile than most of your brewery.

 

[Fermented]

I've used Nitrogen as a process gas (developer agitation on C-41 dip-n-dunk Noritsu film processors) and had some particulate issues which spoiled the soup. We changed to a higher grade and no more issues. Then again, that was in the days of CIG and 'ordinary' grade was about 98%.

More recent work with Argon (four nines, as a process gas for a sputtering chamber) from BOC was flawless.

Maybe they're just getting better at it for all supplies these days.

The only thing that stood out for all of the suppliers was that general process gas cylinders were pretty filthy but the high grade product cylinders were rather pristine (the 'G' size cylinders).

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[SJW]

QUOTE (Fermented @ Jan 8 2009, 09:50 AM)
With most gas (BOC, etc) there are a couple of grades (at least). Generally the difference relates to purity and in some cases minor particulate contamination. Prices rise as the number of nines do (e.g purity = 99%, 99.99%, 99.999%, etc).

You might be wise to get a spec sheet from your prospective CO2 supplier for their range and then pick and choose.

Cheers - Fermented.

Pretty sure that's been completely debunked by guys who've worked for those suppliers. The food and industrial grade tanks are filled from the same sources., maintained in the same way.

For homebrewing purposes, the difference between those numbers of nines, even if it was a real difference, wouldn't have much of an impact. You're usually only gassing fermented beer which is full of healthy yeast to fight off whatever nasties are living in the gas, and it'll be more sterile than most of your brewery.

Thats correct. I have been told by a bloke who fills these things and all the c02 comes from the same tank. They just try to keep the industrial c02 bottles separate from the food grade bottles so they dont all end up getting trashed.

 

[Fermented]

Cool! Good to know.

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[joshuahardie]

I built a small spreadsheet a while ago to help me decide if it was *cost effective* to go big cylinders from SupaGas over what I currently do. I own two SodaStream cylinders. I priced 10kg and 22kg cylinders because the nice people there assured me that was the way to go. It shows that if you're drinking the equivalent of 3 bottles of beer each and every day of the year, it is cheaper to stay with SodaStream (if you're drinking four, go with 10kg and if you're drinking 20 bottles of brew each day, go with 22kg). However, I find that it is a complete pain in the date maintaining a fleet of full SodaStream bottles because it seems that my usage pattern is completely in sync with when the local Kmarts do not have any in stock, particularly when the local Kmart is more than a half-hour's drive away.

For what it's worth, here's the file. It comes with no warranty.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/styl...s/icon_open.gif

Having a play with your spreadsheet, it seems like buying a MKOL swap and go style cyclinder is by far the cheapest way.
$17 a year for the gas alone. how you divide up the initial purchase price over a lifetime of brewing would add to that number though.

 

[roger mellie]

I've used Nitrogen as a process gas (developer agitation on C-41 dip-n-dunk Noritsu film processors) and had some particulate issues which spoiled the soup. We changed to a higher grade and no more issues. Then again, that was in the days of CIG and 'ordinary' grade was about 98%.

More recent work with Argon (four nines, as a process gas for a sputtering chamber) from BOC was flawless.

Maybe they're just getting better at it for all supplies these days.

The only thing that stood out for all of the suppliers was that general process gas cylinders were pretty filthy but the high grade product cylinders were rather pristine (the 'G' size cylinders).

Cheers - Fermented.

Yes there are UHP variants of Nitrogen/Oxygen

2 Grades of Argon - Welding (which has oxygen as its major impurity) and Pure - 99.99% usually with oxygen and Nitrogen as the balance.

But for CO2 - whilst the source varies - some comes out of the ground - some from flue gas offtakes - all CO2 that is put into cylinders will be safe for human consumption. This is because Coca Cola - who use a shedload of CO2 - set the contaminant thresholds - so all makers of LCO2 (Air Liquide and BOC) produce to this spec - there is no such thing as Industrial grade CO2. Benzene is the biggest nasty.

As for the cylinders - a different story. The only thing that will come out of a cylinder is a bit of rust - so no real issue.

RM

 

[LethalCorpse]

As for the cylinders - a different story. The only thing that will come out of a cylinder is a bit of rust - so no real issue.

RM

My wife keeps telling me I don't get enough iron :icon_cheers:

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Having a play with your spreadsheet, it seems like buying a MKOL swap and go style cyclinder is by far the cheapest way.
$17 a year for the gas alone. how you divide up the initial purchase price over a lifetime of brewing would add to that number though.

I did the same, allowing a five year amortization and an interest rate of 5% p.a. Who knows how long MKOL might remain in business and who else knows what interest rates might do...) Break-even point between SodaStream and MKOL is 2.5 bottles equivalent per day.

I feel a financial planning conversation coming on...

 

[MHB]

As a refiller I have a vested interest in this question and have done a fair amount of research, the conclusions I have reached are:-

Yes the gas is the same

The refilling is or at least should be conducted to different standards, all the lines and piping on my refilling station are made from food grade material and the pump is lubricated with food grade silicone lubricants.

This means that you wont be getting enough oxygen or moisture into your bottle to allow rust (or corrosion) to form (fairly bad for the bottles like expectancy is rust), rust and other particulates are not good for the life expectancy of regulators either.

As to the question of the viability of MKOL, I wouldnt be too worried, not only are they doing quite well, if MKOL stopped trading it wouldnt stop refillers like me from continuing to fill bottles.
There are also several other bottle suppliers in the market who would I am sure fill MKOL bottles if any changes occurred.

We are only talking about spending $300-$350 for a legal, rent free bottle that is tested and stamped to Australian Standards; the life expectancy of the bottles is over 20 years.

I would say suck it up, spend the money and about once a year get the bottle refilled by some one that is going to do it properly.

MHB

 

[Stokesy]

After reading through this thread im swinging towards a g size industrial co2 bottle, has anyone else done this?

Thanks in advance.

Stokesy

 

[altone]

After reading through this thread im swinging towards a g size industrial co2 bottle, has anyone else done this?

Thanks in advance.

Stokesy

Really? an almost 10 yo thread?

Well I just use the 2.6Kg KK or KL bottles - your choice.
They last me a year or 2 before I need a refill - so for me - best bang for buck.
If you brew a lot, then the larger BOC rentals with a free (basically) annual refill might work well for you.

 

[Stokesy]

I realise it was a 10 yr old thread, it got my attention because im using 6kg bottles that i have to buy outright and then get refilled, ive only been brewing since august and have just put my 3rd bottle on, i could get a g size industrial bottle cheaper as i already rent 5 more bottles of different welding gases for my workshop, im just curious to know if anyone else has moved away from the more expensive food grade bottles.

Im on my 12th 46litre brew, the charging of the kegs uses the majority of the gas and its to far to just drive to town to get another.

I don't have a problem( twitch) i just love beer


Stokesy

 

[altone]

I realise it was a 10 yr old thread, it got my attention because im using 6kg bottles that i have to buy outright and then get refilled, ive only been brewing since august and have just put my 3rd bottle on, i could get a g size industrial bottle cheaper as i already rent 5 more bottles of different welding gases for my workshop, im just curious to know if anyone else has moved away from the more expensive food grade bottles.

Im on my 12th 46litre brew, the charging of the kegs uses the majority of the gas and its to far to just drive to town to get another.

I don't have a problem( twitch) i just love beer


Stokesy

Ok no probs - Food grade and industrial are the same gas, only the bottles have different requirements.
So if it makes financial sense - go for it

 

[Frothy Boi]

Ok no probs - Food grade and industrial are the same gas, only the bottles have different requirements.
So if it makes financial sense - go for it

+1 I've started recently at a mid sized gas supplier and the first day I asked my boss the same question, his reply was "the main difference is the product codes so the sales reps don't step on each others toes"