Dms And Boil

[manticle]

Took some dredging of the memory banks but I think your referring to 2-ap, here is a link beer sensory science just after a good post on DMS (A pretty corny post.) the bit on Myrcene is also worth a read.
Mark

Will have to dig out the relevant page if I remember but that's probably it.

There is a thread here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry966646 where various people report the same flavour with Wey Floor malted. I had the same character in a beer I made with that malt and tried two other brewers' attempts at similar (decocted, 100% or close to FMWP) which is what made it click when I read it.

Have to have another crack with that malt some time and see if I get a similar character. Never had it from either Dingemans, wey pils or wey bo pils - just that malt.

Cheers for the links

^ Just read your relevant link and that sounds bang on.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

a nugget from bamforth - from Brewers Guardian, linked to in previous threads on ahb.

ssm is converted to dms at higher temperatures, DMS is diven off during the boil as a result of evaporation.

Long mashing times and specifically decoctions, can manage to convert significant SSM to DMS, but then dont follow themselves with a (long) boiling period to drive off the DMS they created. So the boil has to try and deal with the DMS created by the mashing regime AND the DMS that is being created during the boil itself. So mashing regimes can contribute too.

so it follows as possible - that some of the "euro" dms character could be coming not just from the use of paler pilsner type malts, but then be further increased by the use of extended step and/or decotion mashes as is more prevalent in euro brewing than most other places.

 

[labels]

Also interesting (to me anyway) is the large amounts of corn I get in bottled budějovick budvar. Not really sweet, uncooked and in levels beyond what i would prefer but not onion, garlic or overcooked broccoli either.

I also have this probelm with this beer. IMO, it really needs to be consumed at very cold temperatures to reduce that flavour to below being dominating

Steve

 

[Mardoo]

OK, thanks for all this discussion as I'm about to embark on my first AG kolsch-ish brew and there seems to be some relevant issues raised. I've had a few recommendations to do a long multi-step mash including a protein rest and to shorten the boil to 60 minutes to minimize melanoidin formation. Some of this discussion has me wondering whether both the extended mash and short boil are actually good ideas with something as light as a kolsch. Anyone have any experience in this regard?

Grain bill is as follows for a 22 litre brew:

4kg Bestmalz pilsner malt
400gr Bestmalz wheat malt
250gr Bestmalz dark wheat malt

I'm using the Wyeast 2565 and I've planned the fermentation at 15C.

Any advice on reducing either the mashing schedule or the boil? I'm already aware that I'm into BJCP heretic territory with the dark wheat malt. I'd rather not also share the sulfurs of hell/DMS with my father-in-law coming from England for Christmas. Just a great drinking beer.

 

[labels]

OK, thanks for all this discussion as I'm about to embark on my first AG kolsch-ish brew and there seems to be some relevant issues raised. I've had a few recommendations to do a long multi-step mash including a protein rest and to shorten the boil to 60 minutes to minimize melanoidin formation. Some of this discussion has me wondering whether both the extended mash and short boil are actually good ideas with something as light as a kolsch. Anyone have any experience in this regard?

Grain bill is as follows for a 22 litre brew:

4kg Bestmalz pilsner malt
400gr Bestmalz wheat malt
250gr Bestmalz dark wheat malt

I'm using the Wyeast 2565 and I've planned the fermentation at 15C.

Any advice on reducing either the mashing schedule or the boil? I'm already aware that I'm into BJCP heretic territory with the dark wheat malt. I'd rather not also share the sulfurs of hell/DMS with my father-in-law coming from England for Christmas. Just a great drinking beer.

TBQH, I've never made a Kolsch. With a bit of wheat in the beer there is, maybe some justification for doing a protein rest. BUT the pilsner malt does not need it, it is fully modified, pilsner malts are generally just about as modified as you can get and it does make up the bulk of your grain bill. Same with step mashing. A single infusion mash at 65C for 90 minutes will get past any iodine test, guaranteed. IMHO, if you really think it's necessary to do protein rest for the wheat, do it separately and add it to the main mash but, I think you're wasting your time. 90 min single infusion and a 60 minute boil. Use the KISS principle, it works the best and there are way less things to go wrong.

Steve

 

[Mardoo]

IMHO, if you really think it's necessary to do protein rest for the wheat, do it separately and add it to the main mash but, I think you're wasting your time. 90 min single infusion and a 60 minute boil. Use the KISS principle, it works the best and there are way less things to go wrong.

Steve

Great input, many thanks for your help. That notion of separately mashing is pretty interesting, but I'd guess you're right on the KISS. For some reason I find complicated things entertaining

 

[dubbadan]

Wow, what great feedback, thanks! I think that on the whole the advice is to leave the lid off. I'll just need to get used to larger sparge volumes and/or adding water post boil. I might even get better mash efficiency...

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I've been known to make the odd kolsch or two

P rest - if you'd like, but short and at 55 - not needed though, so in the interests of KISS, I'd skip it unless you can articulate a reason that you need to include it.

Balance of mash - single infusion at about 65 will get you there. 60mins would do, 90mins will definitely do

Boil - I'd boil for 90mins, because of the DMS thing, especially if you are going to no-chill. There is only a minimal extra formation of melanoidins in an extra 30min of boiling. Not enough to be an issue.

Dark wheat - who cares what the BJCP says. BUT - it will make it less like a genuine kolsch than it would be without the dark wheat. And plainly, you dont want the sorts of things a dark malt addition would offer..... otherwise why are you even considering shortening a boil to minimise melanoidins, which is what a dark malt is choc a block full of?

2565 - lovely yeast. 14, 15, 16 degrees even its celan and crisp with just hints and suggestions of the winey characters that make a kolsch a kolsch... any higher and I find it throws pear esters all over the shop that over power the beer. And make it CLEAR. Fine it, cold condition it (do this anyway), filter it.... however you do it, but make it crystal clear. 2565 in suspension tastes remarkably like vomit! i dont mean it just gnerally tastes bad, it actually has a flavour reminiscent of vomit. And as a bonus for you, the yeast is a completely **** flocculator. So be prepared to supply effort and patience in decent amounts. A good kolsch requires both.

TB

 

[Mardoo]

I've been known to make the odd kolsch or two

P rest - if you'd like, but short and at 55 - not needed though, so in the interests of KISS, I'd skip it unless you can articulate a reason that you need to include it.

Balance of mash - single infusion at about 65 will get you there. 60mins would do, 90mins will definitely do

Boil - I'd boil for 90mins, because of the DMS thing, especially if you are going to no-chill. There is only a minimal extra formation of melanoidins in an extra 30min of boiling. Not enough to be an issue.

Dark wheat - who cares what the BJCP says. BUT - it will make it less like a genuine kolsch than it would be without the dark wheat. And plainly, you dont want the sorts of things a dark malt addition would offer..... otherwise why are you even considering shortening a boil to minimise melanoidins, which is what a dark malt is choc a block full of?

2565 - lovely yeast. 14, 15, 16 degrees even its celan and crisp with just hints and suggestions of the winey characters that make a kolsch a kolsch... any higher and I find it throws pear esters all over the shop that over power the beer. And make it CLEAR. Fine it, cold condition it (do this anyway), filter it.... however you do it, but make it crystal clear. 2565 in suspension tastes remarkably like vomit! i dont mean it just gnerally tastes bad, it actually has a flavour reminiscent of vomit. And as a bonus for you, the yeast is a completely **** flocculator. So be prepared to supply effort and patience in decent amounts. A good kolsch requires both.

TB

I'll add my thanks to dubbadan's. Much appreciated all and Thirstyboy. That dark wheat thing popped into my head sometime in the middle of the night. And thanks for sharing those gems about 2565. REALLY good to know. I'll try not to divert this thread any further!

 

[Goose]

2565 - lovely yeast. 14, 15, 16 degrees even its celan and crisp with just hints and suggestions of the winey characters that make a kolsch a kolsch... any higher and I find it throws pear esters all over the shop that over power the beer. And make it CLEAR. Fine it, cold condition it (do this anyway), filter it.... however you do it, but make it crystal clear. 2565 in suspension tastes remarkably like vomit! i dont mean it just gnerally tastes bad, it actually has a flavour reminiscent of vomit. And as a bonus for you, the yeast is a completely **** flocculator. So be prepared to supply effort and patience in decent amounts. A good kolsch requires both.

just put one of these down myself , already racked and carbonated right now cold conditioning at 2 deg C..... no finings but curious about the effect of filtering on flavour :huh: though also prefer a clear brew.... can see how it removes that "vomit" yeast but would not that yeast be the necessary engine for cold conditioning ...or do you suggest filtering after a period of cc ?

sorry to get off topic here

 

[manticle]

Took some dredging of the memory banks but I think your referring to 2-ap, here is a link beer sensory science just after a good post on DMS (A pretty corny post.) the bit on Myrcene is also worth a read.
Mark
View attachment 58096

Just dug up the relevant page. No mention of 2 acetyl pyrazine - the closest sounding compound is 2-acetonyl pyrazine, described as having a burnt or sharp toasted flavour (page 77 from the second edition). Fits in a little with your link and the supposed biscuity/corn chips but the structure differs. Something like:

I tried inserting the structure using letters but the formatting keeps centering the letters and making them a nonsense.

On the same page, Fix mentions 2-formyl pyrole as having a sweet corn like flavour which is often confused with DMS but the mechanisms that for the two are completely different. Increased thermal loading will encourage the formation of 2-formyl pyrrole but encourage the volaility of DMS (again page 77).