Citra/Target/Fuggle IPA

[Matplat]

So im planning the above recipe which will look something like this:

3.5 kg DME
0.5kg Crystal 120

25g citra 45 min
25g target 30 min
25g citra 20 min
25g target 10 min
25g fuggles 5 min
25g fuggles 0 min or dry hop not sure yet

S-04 fermented at 18-20

OG 1.062 batch size 23.5l
(half a litre for samples!)
IBU 46

Any thoughts? I wanted to do an all english IPA but couldn't get any EKG, so target becomes dual purpose and the citra does the heavy lifting.

I have had one or two commercial IPA's in my time and never thought they were overly bitter, however the pale ale im drinking at the moment had an IBU of 35 and it is pretty bitter
(although becoming less so at 4 weeks old), with this recipe having 46 will the increased IBU get masked by the increased malt content?

 

[Blind Dog]

IBU / OG (last 2 digits of OG) is a reasonable guide to the bitterness / malt balance. You have around 0.75, which should be fine for an IPA.

Not sure about your hop combo though. Not a big fan of either Target or Fuggles to be honest and don't think either or both combined with Citra is appealing. Do you have reason to believe they'll play nicely, as I've temded to find that UK and US hops only work together with the UK hops for bittering and the U.S. ones for FWH and late additions. I haven't tried your combo but have made some absolute shockers with a similar hopping schedule just different hops, so if they're the hops you have id be looking to bitter with the Target and use the Citra late in the boil. YMMV

 

[motman]

Hi, I've just been drinking a Fuggles, Maris ottor all grain SMASH. It was bittered to 90ibu but does not taste bitter to me or a non-craft mate. It is a 8% beer though, so plenty of malt to balance it out. Same yeast as you. When I do it again I think I'll try bittering with a higher alpha uk hop if I can find one, as I had to manage massive amounts of hop material in this brew.

It's f'n good!

I'm no veteran but would suggest sticking with English or similar hops if you can, not sure how the American twang would fit with the beer I have... Also, one thing I have learned is that bittering hops certainly do leave their own flavour in a beer, they're not just bittering!

Other thing I learned when brewing with bintani DME is that it does not attenuate well. I believe many extracts are similar. You may want to consider drying out with a simple sugar like dextrose or sucrose. Otherwise you could end up with super high body beer like my first dme IPA (I had to scoop the head off with a spoon to drink and the foam would stick around for hours).

Hope it goes well

On the other hand, I made some good beers learning these lessons, so

 

[Matplat]

IBU / OG (last 2 digits of OG) is a reasonable guide to the bitterness / malt balance. You have around 0.75, which should be fine for an IPA.

Not sure about your hop combo though. Not a big fan of either Target or Fuggles to be honest and don't think either or both combined with Citra is appealing. Do you have reason to believe they'll play nicely, as I've temded to find that UK and US hops only work together with the UK hops for bittering and the U.S. ones for FWH and late additions. I haven't tried your combo but have made some absolute shockers with a similar hopping schedule just different hops, so if they're the hops you have id be looking to bitter with the Target and use the Citra late in the boil. YMMV

Thanks for the insight,

I actually started out to brew the Fruit Tingle IPA on the DB, but then my pommie roots came to the fore and thought i would do it English.

I haven't brewed with either of the UK hops before, however i love Theakstons Old Peculiar and i know that that is flavoured with fuggles, target just happened to be the only other UK hop available from the supplier i was ordering from, and i have a spare pack of citra in the freezer!

I have definitely read somewherr about a uk brewery doing a EKG/Fuggle IPA, but supplier had no EKG. CB does though, so maybe i will have to get some there and drop the target back to bittering. Admittedly i am a bit concerned about its "earthy" flavour... but supposedly it has been used to make a single hop brew by brewery X in the UK so cant be too bad right?

 

[Matplat]

Hi, I've just been drinking a Fuggles, Maris ottor all grain SMASH. It was bittered to 90ibu but does not taste bitter to me or a non-craft mate. It is a 8% beer though, so plenty of malt to balance it out. Same yeast as you. When I do it again I think I'll try bittering with a higher alpha uk hop if I can find one, as I had to manage massive amounts of hop material in this brew.

It's f'n good!

I'm no veteran but would suggest sticking with English or similar hops if you can, not sure how the American twang would fit with the beer I have... Also, one thing I have learned is that bittering hops certainly do leave their own flavour in a beer, they're not just bittering!

Other thing I learned when brewing with bintani DME is that it does not attenuate well. I believe many extracts are similar. You may want to consider drying out with a simple sugar like dextrose or sucrose. Otherwise you could end up with super high body beer like my first dme IPA (I had to scoop the head off with a spoon to drink and the foam would stick around for hours).

Hope it goes well

On the other hand, I made some good beers learning these lessons, so

Thanks Motman,

So you'd recommend swapping say 1kg dme for 1kg dex?

Glad you're enjoying the fuggle flavour, have you tried Old Peculiar? Highly recommended!

Whats a SMASH?

Cheers, Matt

 

[Blind Dog]

To my taste, there are just better UK hops than either fuggles or target Happy to be in a minority, we all have different tastes.

Old Peculier - marvellous beer, particularly at any pub in or near Masham, but a very different beast to an IPA as the hops pretty much play a supporting role to the malt. If you're heading down that road there's some pretty simple extract recipes around that seem to get close based on the comments. Fuggles are definitely the late hops per their website and every reliable recipe I've found, but they're pretty subtle

EKG are awesome hops, and should be on every Brewers radar, particularly for English ales.

Do you have enough Citra to use only that hop? It's a great hop and a Citra IPA would be tasty, plus you'd get to taste what it brings to the table without anything much to distract.

If not, and they're all you have use the Target to bitter and then flavour/aroma additions from either fuggles (to go down the English route) or Citra (US route), but not both.

 

[Blind Dog]

Oh, and. SMASH beer is beer brewed using just a Single Malt and a Single Hop variety. So for example Maris Otter with EKG, Pilsner malt with Saaz hops etc. more for all grain than extract and often advocated as a way to learn about what each malt and each hop brings as well as being more than capable of brewing exceptional beers

 

[Matplat]

Thanks Blind Dog,

I have already ordered the Target and Fuggles already so i'm pretty set on doing it english, plus I've only got about 80g Citra and I have just done a cascarillo amber, and citra/cascade/amarillo pale, so I've had my fill of american for the time being!

Based on your direction though I won't mix the US and UK hops, I had thought the citra flavour would largely disappear.

I guess I'l wait and see what the target smell like before finalising the hop schedule, but I may well order some EKG if deemed necessary!

Cheers, Matt

 

[technobabble66]

Hey matplat

What roughly do you want with your IPA? The malt to be most prominent or the hops?

I have no experience with Target, but a large amount of citra at 20mins will be quite noticeable.
I believe there are possibilities in mixing UK and US hops, but I approach it with a particular angle - which is generally following a typical UK or US style and tweaking it a little. I find the UK hops generally work to accentuate the malts and generally don't stand out too much, so if I use US hops with them in a more malt/UK focused beer I'd be very light in the amounts -eg: drop your 20min Citra to 10g or even 5g (citra is more powerful than most). Whereas a more hops/US focused beer would use (obviously) larger amounts and late but of the more floral/fruity hops like EKG or challenger.

Fwiw, quite a few people report fuggles used too late (ie: flameout) tastes like boiled peanuts - not in a good way. No experience of that myself. Also, the more respected recipes for TOP clones generally have fuggles early in the boil (~60mins) and EKG late (20mins).

So what I'd be tempted to do is basically swap your citra and fuggles around for a more US style. Or swap your Target and fuggles around and drop the 20min Citra to 5-10g.

2c

 

[motman]

Thanks Motman,

So you'd recommend swapping say 1kg dme for 1kg dex?

Glad you're enjoying the fuggle flavour, have you tried Old Peculiar? Highly recommended!

Whats a SMASH?

Cheers, Matt

Hey Matt,
Sorry to throw jargon at you. You got a good answer above though. Regards the dextrose, I'd do some homework (I only did a couple of DME brews before going to all grain BIAB) but I think 5 - 10% is about the top end of the amount you want to use before you upset the yeast a bit. Also, depends upon your DME - maybe yours ferments out better than the bintani I have. But with an IPA, drying the beer out with some is most likely a good idea so the hops can shine and the beer isn't too chunky.

I love Old Peculiar too, good stuff. I didn't know it showcased Fuggles, good to know. Just FYI, I'll pop in the recipe I followed for the Fuggles IPA - It really doesn't show any of the negative features discussed above. I did alter the recipe to only have 90 calculated IBU (original recipe calculated up 172!), both to save money and beer that would otherwise be soaked up by hops and also because the experts claim you can only detect up to 90..

[SIZE=15pt]Ingredients[/SIZE]​

12.00 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) 87.6 %
0.50 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) 3.6 %
0.30 kg Oats, Flaked (2.0 EBC) 2.2 %
0.20 kg Rice, Flaked (2.0 EBC) 1.5 %

350.00 g Fuggles [5.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 97.5 IBUs
0.50 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 3.6 %
0.20 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 EBC) Sugar 1.5 %

4.0 pkg
SafAle English Ale (DCL/Fermentis #S-04) [23.66 ml] Yeast

100.00 g Fuggle [5.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 0.0 IBUs
50.00 g Fuggle [4.50 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days 0.0 IBUs

[SIZE=14pt]Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=12pt]Est Original Gravity:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] 1.071 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.6 %
Bitterness: 97.5 IBUs
Est Color: 11.7 EBC [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Measured Original Gravity:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] 1.075 SG
Measured Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 8.1 %
Calories: 718.2 kcal/l [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]** Edited to make the recipe legible**[/SIZE]

 

[Matplat]

Hmmmm the plot thickens....

Boiled peanuts sounds ****.

Not really sure what I want out of it.... just brewing an english IPA cos i'm english, and IPA's seem like the done thing to do! my inexperience shining through here

I guess it would be sensible and brew to a style as I'm still working out what's what, and considering I have been doing hoppy american things so far, a malt driven british sounds good.

So now probably more like

target @60
Fuggles @30
EKG@20

???

 

[technobabble66]

Yep, I'd go for something like that myself, but that's just me.
I'd maybe be tempted to try a tiny bit of citra at 20 or 30 - like 5-10g, just to help the IBUs and save the others a little, and to ramp up the citrusy element a little. I find some of the UK ales make good use of *subtle* citrus and marmalade to accent the malts (cf dominate).
Maybe a little EKG at flameout &/or dry - again, to my tastes.

Otoh I'm a noob when it comes to IPAs so I could be wrong with this B)

 

[going down a hill]

Perfect, go forth and brew!

 

[technobabble66]

@motman, what hops flavours and aromas were you getting from your fuggles SMASH?
That's a freakin truckload of fuggles at both boil and dry!

 

[Matplat]

This is what it looks like now....

I will be getting my DME from craft brewer, so whether that is Bintani/Briess I have no idea, but I think i'l leave out the dex and take my chances this time round, drop a crap load of S-04 in to make sure it attenuates.

Might do as you suggest and drop some citra in but still got to think about that, and whether the 0 min EKG is flameout or dry also remains to be seen.

If it's really a malt driven brew though, perhaps they should all go in at 20min?

 

[motman]

@motman, what hops flavours and aromas were you getting from your fuggles SMASH?
That's a freakin truckload of fuggles at both boil and dry!

Good question... I find it hard to put descriptions to beer flavours. I'm trying to learn the lingo but still getting there. I'd say "fruity", with some prune like flavour toward the back of the palate. It seems really smoothly malty too me but I may be mixing it up with the fuggles hop flavour. I'm taking it to the homebrew club tonight, so maybe I'll have some more eloquent description for you based on that..

Note that it was a 35 litre finished volume beer, so might not be quite as much as you think but still tonnes of hops!

 

[Blind Dog]

This is what it looks like now....

I will be getting my DME from craft brewer, so whether that is Bintani/Briess I have no idea, but I think i'l leave out the dex and take my chances this time round, drop a crap load of S-04 in to make sure it attenuates.

Might do as you suggest and drop some citra in but still got to think about that, and whether the 0 min EKG is flameout or dry also remains to be seen.

If it's really a malt driven brew though, perhaps they should all go in at 20min?

Personally I'd forget about the Citra completely and go with the revised recipe as is. EKG late in the boil and at flameout should be fine - a gazillion English bitter recipes use it that way.

 

[Matplat]

Yeah, I think i'l leave it all English, and dry hop with the EKG, after all isn't that what the IPA style is known for, dry hops in the barrels to preserve it at sea?

 

[Matplat]

I'm a few weeks away from even brewing this, so I'l report back with the results in two or three months!

 

[technobabble66]

Quick followup, just to add some more confusion:
I had a Red IPA by Wolfman at tuesday's MMs "meeting" - it was basically Williamette early and Fuggles + EKG late (maybe at flameout?).
It was v tasty!
EKG used late i'm familiar with, so what stood out was the late fuggles (i think).
It's very hard to describe the impact it had. I'd hesitate to use the word "Earthy" - it wasn't quite that. It was maybe a slightly more herbal element. And a "je ne said quoin" type of element, maybe a little like the weird but yummy "je ne said quoi" element of truffles... But not exactly.
Sorry - i've found it really hard to think of how to describe it. Very good, though i could appreciate it may not appeal to everyone.
So i guess i'd say now, if you're keen, give it a crack! Experiment with that late fuggles or not - either way the basic recipe you seem to now be going with should be tasty!