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Jase71

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I'm thinking about doing a partial extract beer for my third round into the craft, and, well, throwing some ideas together. Would love some feedback from some of the more experienced members......

Ok, here goes:

1kg Morgans Caramalt Goo
1.5kg Coopers LDME
500grams Dextrose
250grams Maltodextrine
250grams cracked crystal grain
Hopped with either Cascade, Fuggles or Saaz pellets
S-04 yeast - recycled from the last batch

The maltodextrine & dextrose component is included simply because I have a fair bit of it, and want to use what I already have in the cupboard. I am not intending to buy any other hop varieties for the time being, so the above list is my present limitation.

I'm also wondering whether the crystal grain flavour would be buried under the Caramalt flavours - and therefore if so, perhaps this is not a necesarry addition.

Cheers,

Jase
 
I'm thinking about doing a partial extract beer for my third round into the craft, and, well, throwing some ideas together. Would love some feedback from some of the more experienced members......

Ok, here goes:

1kg Morgans Caramalt Goo
1.5kg Coopers LDME
500grams Dextrose
250grams Maltodextrine
250grams cracked crystal grain
Hopped with either Cascade, Fuggles or Saaz pellets
S-04 yeast - recycled from the last batch

The maltodextrine & dextrose component is included simply because I have a fair bit of it, and want to use what I already have in the cupboard. I am not intending to buy any other hop varieties for the time being, so the above list is my present limitation.

I'm also wondering whether the crystal grain flavour would be buried under the Caramalt flavours - and therefore if so, perhaps this is not a necesarry addition.

Cheers,

Jase
jase....slightly pissed atm, so let me know if i make no sense....
the crystal and the caramalt will blend well, adding complexity. It's one of those things where you think that the cara hides the crystal, until you taste one with just cara or just crystal...then you pick the difference. I would leave it with both.

For this, I would bitter with fuggle, flavour with cascade at 0.75-1g/L, and f/o with 0.5-0.75g/L.....2c. Bitter it to OGx0.65 IBU, perfic best bitter.
 
Jase, so we can help you further you will need to tell us what you want your final volume to be and what volume you can boil.



Cheers
Gavo.
 
jase....slightly pissed atm, so let me know if i make no sense....

Yes I read about your valiant session, good to see you're making such personal sacrifices for your art. :icon_cheers: Cheers for the feedback, are you suggesting cascade as a finishing hop...

Gav, probably aiming for around 22litres. I can boil about 8 litres at a time on my stovetop, although I could use two pots simultaneously and bring that figure up to around 12litres.
 
Jase you must have been reading my mind as I punched those figures into beersmith this morning. An 8 litre boil and 22 litre batch was exactly what I put in. I have been doing mine at a 20 litre batch as this gives me two slabs plus 1 - 2 tasters (I box my stubbies back up for conditioning).

Anyhow this is what I get after decifering what Butters wrote after his scientific testing session, good work Butters. :icon_cheers:

I have added the ingredients as you have listed apart from the multidextrine and I come up with an SG of 1047 and estimate of 1012 FG ABV estimate of 4.54%

If you can boil 8 litres then boil the Crystal malt (after steeping) with the caramalt and add all of the other fermentables after the boil. (LDME and DEX and the Multodextrine if you really want to use it, I would skip the malto and yes I know you want to use it up).

Pour the lot into the fermenter (strain the hops if you wish) add ice and cold water to cool to pitching temp. This is what I have done and works fine.

Hop schedule can be as simple as 40 grams of Fuggles at 60min and 15 grams of Cascade a 15min.

Cheers
Gavo.
 
Yeah, cascade for the flavour addition (15minutes), and again at the very end of the boil, just as it gets pulled off the stove. Some people find fuggle a bit grassy when used for the later additions, personaly I use it in the flavour addition with no issue, but it's a like it or leave it type of hop. I don't use it at flameout or for dry hopping for this reason.

As far as the boil is concerned, you don't need to boil all the ingredients...the hot and cold break is made and removed as part of the manufacturing process, and the liquids are sterile in their cans, so they really only need to be added right at the very end of the boil, and just mixed through. The dry ingredients need to be boiled for sanitation, although to be honest, how many people do when using the same ingredients for kit and kilo type brews? not many.

For an extract brew, you don't need to boil the full volume, unlike with an all grain. So you could get away with a single boil of 8L. I don't think you need the maltodextrin...without it, you would get an OG of 1048@22L, with an fg in the 1010-1012 region. With the maltodext, you would have OG around 1052, and fg around 1014-1016ish. Lets say for the time being, that it gets left out...

steep the grains, and use that water for the boil. Use 1kg of the malt, and make up to 8L. This would give a boil gravity of 1050. The BG doesnt need to be the same as the projected OG for the full volume, but it can make it a bit easier to do the calculations that way...You do the hopping in this pot, calculating how much hops neded for the full volume, but for the Boil gravity that is actually in the pot. In effect, you're making 8L of wort that is bitter enough for all 22L - in essence, producing your own kit. Then the rest of the malts and adjuncts are either added in towards the end, with just enough time to sanatise it, or alternatively are boiled in a second pot, with just enough water to boil it. The whole lot is then added to the fermenter, and topped up to the 22L mark, and voila. If you have the volume of hot/cold right, you can get away with not having to chill, and still hit pitching temps. If not, you will need to cool the boiled wort then add it to the fermenter, and top up with cold. (but if you use cold water for the topup, the boiled wort doesn't need to be cooled all the way, just enough to bring the whole lot to pitching temp.)

With the amount of hops, there are a few trains of thought....addition times vary, but a common schedule is 60 min for bittering, 15 min for flavour, and 0min for aroma. The shorter additions will add a bit of bitterness, but their main purpose is to add flavour and aroma, so a lot of brewers will set the weights of the last additions based on how much flavour and aroma they want, and then adjust the weight of the 60 minute addition only, in order to vary the bitterness level. For an english style, imo, 0.75g of hops per L of final volume will give a good amount of flavour for the style (which is much less than an american pale ale, for example). So I would set the 15min addition at 15g, and use probably 10-12g for the 0 min addition. Then I would add whatever weight is needed to the 60min addition to achieve the right IBU. (which depends on the Alpha% of the hops, and the boil gravity.) The total IBU required depends on how bitter you want the beer, but the IBU number itself doesn't tell much as far as how it balances the beer....thats where BUGU comes in, which is the ratio of IBU vs OG....the more (malt) sugar in the beer, the more IBU required to give it the same relative bitterness. For an English Bitter, 0.65 is a good ratio, so multiply OG by 0.65, and thats how many IBU to add....this can be tweaked to taste.

If you need any help on the bittering calculations, just whistle. ;)

Edit: Gavo just posted at exactly the same time as me, and must have been reading my bloody mind. So thats what the voices in my head are.... :D
 
Edit: Gavo just posted at exactly the same time as me, and must have been reading my bloody mind. So thats what the voices in my head are.... :D

:lol: Gold, watch out I am haunting you. You have taught me well.

Just tasted a my English special bitter yesterday only one week in the bottle, couldn't wait. little malty, I used EKG and a touch of NS for 60min the EKG for 30min. Next time I will add a small 15min addition for a little hop flavor.

Cheers
Gavo :icon_cheers:
 
Guys, much apreciated ! And Butter, thanks for the number crunching. While Ive had many beers in my time (Im always partial to trying something new when I go up to the bottleshop), I can't recall ever having any English beers, so I'm a bit in the drak as to what flavours the fuggles might bring to the glass. However based on reading some of the flavour characteristics, and woking on the idea that my recipe is probably going to have elements of sweetness, Ive got nothing to lose. And it's all a learning curve. Just bottled my second batch today, so I'll have to wait a couple of weeks to get some more empties in order. So the pitching date on this Caramalt recipe's likely going to be next Saturday.

As an aside, I cracked a bottle of my first batch today with SWMBO, it was Coopers Wheat with Wheat Malt and bloody hell, we unanimously agreed it was outstanding, after just one week's bottle conditioning. Perhaps a little underhopped (dry hopped three days before bottling), but really clean & fresh tasting. The real session on that will begin in another couple of weeks, after a bit more time in the dark.

So let's talk about yeast....... I've reserved about 300ml of trub today (from a coopers draught), into a plastic bottle, topped it with distilled water and popped it in the fridge. Will this be OK to pitch into the Caramalt brew ? Thinking of adding it to a litre or so of water the night before, and 'feeding it' a couple of carb drops (another redundant cupboard stock that I want to use up). It's Safale S-04.
 
No problem Jase, happy to pass along what I have learned here. You will just have to drink faster to free up more bottles. :p Using the yeast in the way you have said sounds fine, check Chillers topic here on yeast farming. This is what I do and it works just fine. Even one re-use of your yeast lowers the price of each brew and give a little more "I did it myself satisfaction".

Cheers
Gavo.
 
No worries jase. S04 is....appropriaate for moving into the style. When more experienced, you have the fun of yeast experimentation, which will give you different emphasis on different ingredients in the brew. S04 for me is a little bit too 'neutral' in it;s flavour profile, but I think in your case thats a good thing; it will give you an itroduction to the style, and allow you to tweak to your own preferences from there.

Bear in mind, English beers are generally much lower in hop flavour than american ales, wheats, and euro styles....there is a much finer balance to them, and a lot of 'americancentric' brewers don't appreciate the subtlety of them. So go into the style (or any other style, for that matter) in an open minded way, because all too often, un-realised expectations are what ruins a perfectly good beer as much as anything else. ;)
 
You will just have to drink faster to free up more bottles.
Gav I know, it's a burden I must shoulder reluctantly :D . Actually, my local bottleshop (an independant store owned and run by an italian family) is fantastic for beer variety, so Im often up there chatting with one of the younger sons about stuff. AND we negotiated me a great case price on my supply of Schwelmer Pils (around $4.15 a bottle, where the single price is usually six bucks), it's quite an OK beer, but the 500ml swingtops are going to be indispensable.

buttersd70 said:
So go into the style (or any other style, for that matter) in an open minded way, because all too often, un-realised expectations are what ruins a perfectly good beer as much as anything else.
That's a very philosophical statement. But I agree with you. As with many aspects of things I do, it's difficult for me to stay on a straight path when there are variables available. In this case (being the making of BEER) there's such opportunities to go beyond simlpe kits and the associated restrictions, and it really doesnt seem like a whiole lot more work for anyone even mildy passionate about it. It is peers such as yourself and others that make the transition logical.
 
That's a very philosophical statement. But I agree with you. As with many aspects of things I do, it's difficult for me to stay on a straight path when there are variables available. In this case (being the making of BEER) there's such opportunities to go beyond simlpe kits and the associated restrictions, and it really doesnt seem like a whiole lot more work for anyone even mildy passionate about it. It is peers such as yourself and others that make the transition logical.

Wheres the "blushing" smiley when you need it?
 
Bear in mind, English beers are generally much lower in hop flavour than american ales, wheats, and euro styles....there is a much finer balance to them, and a lot of 'americancentric' brewers don't appreciate the subtlety of them. So go into the style (or any other style, for that matter) in an open minded way, because all too often, un-realised expectations are what ruins a perfectly good beer as much as anything else. ;)
This is as you say generally the case, but then again it doesn't have to be. A friend of mine who is known for an almost fanatical devotion to the hop vine, particularly on the US side had Well's bombadier handpumped from the cask recently and was amazed by the fresh hop character....

Gav I know, it's a burden I must shoulder reluctantly :D . Actually, my local bottleshop (an independant store owned and run by an italian family) is fantastic for beer variety, so Im often up there chatting with one of the younger sons about stuff. AND we negotiated me a great case price on my supply of Schwelmer Pils (around $4.15 a bottle, where the single price is usually six bucks), it's quite an OK beer, but the 500ml swingtops are going to be indispensable.
My dad drinks this a bit. Quite a nice beer and great bottles! Even now I keg I love these bottles. You can sometimes get it in smaller ones as well...

That's a very philosophical statement. But I agree with you. As with many aspects of things I do, it's difficult for me to stay on a straight path when there are variables available. In this case (being the making of BEER) there's such opportunities to go beyond simlpe kits and the associated restrictions, and it really doesnt seem like a whiole lot more work for anyone even mildy passionate about it. It is peers such as yourself and others that make the transition logical.
Straight path? What for? There are no limits, go for it! To steal a part of a quote from someone's signature on here, making beer is not work!!!

With your stated recipe and yeast I'd use the Fuggles but a few English breweries are now finishing with Cascade so that would be an option.
Some don't like Fuggles but I do, particularly when mixed with Goldings...

You could keep a similar recipe, use a more neutral yeast like us05 and put the Cascade in that, going all Fuggles for this...
All sorts of options really :)
 
This is as you say generally the case, but then again it doesn't have to be. A friend of mine who is known for an almost fanatical devotion to the hop vine, particularly on the US side had Well's bombadier handpumped from the cask recently and was amazed by the fresh hop character....

There are always exceptions, and as you said, they can be very good indeed....

Straight path? What for? There are no limits, go for it! To steal a part of a quote from someone's signature on here, making beer is not work!!!
I missed the little bit about the 'straight path' :p . I agree, there is no straight path. Think outside the box, use 'guides' as guides, not gospel. The beer I brewed last week was the first time in I don't know how long that I actually brewed within 'style guidlines'....and that was more a case of it just happened to fit, not because I was trying to make it fit.

With your stated recipe and yeast I'd use the Fuggles but a few English breweries are now finishing with Cascade so that would be an option.
Some don't like Fuggles but I do, particularly when mixed with Goldings...
I'm a fuggly fan too. Love it, particularly with styrian....which is why it would also go well with cascade to finish.

You could keep a similar recipe, use a more neutral yeast like us05 and put the Cascade in that, going all Fuggles for this...
All sorts of options really :)

A great idea. It's amazing what a single hop difference, or a differant yeast will make, even if the grain bill (or extract in this case) is identical. So many options, so little time.........
 
.. to quote myself (ego driven as I am LOL) "it's difficult for me to stay on a straight path" ...... basically suggested that I'm not interested in the 'add kit, throw in some sugar, beer done' concept. Therefore a site like this is perfect inspiration to experiment a lot. Hell, I might even come up with something unique one day. Although I would hope that someone steps in when I start suggesting hops pellets in an unwashed gym sock.
 
Although I would hope that someone steps in when I start suggesting hops pellets in an unwashed gym sock.

reminds me of......"Mildred! Do you have any clean socks? I need something to strain my beer."

Classic Brian Murphy... :lol:
 
Not even the crickets could be heard after that comment, Butters :D

So I'm ready to roll this weekend, after I pick up a plastic tub to act as my ghetto cooling system. So to give myself a walk-through for my own sense of clarity, and open discussion for any last pointers, it shall proceed as follows (for a 22ltr finished wort):

(1.) For The Malt Goodies:
  • 250grams cracked crystal grain in a saucepan, steeped in 4ltrs just-boiled water, for 30 minutes
  • Reserve the water, and re-steep in another 4ltrs just-boiled water (just to be sure I get the lot extracted!)
  • Strain husks out of liquid
  • Combine to make 8ltrs, then gradually add 1kg LDME to avoid clumping. Boil vigourously for 30 minutes to sterilise
  • Remove from heat, then add can of caramalt.
(2.) For the Hop 'Tea':
  • Boil 4ltrs water (in another pot)
  • Add 15grams Fuggles Pellets, boil for 60 minutes
  • Add 15grams Cascade Pellets, boil for 15 minutes
  • Add 10grams Cascade Pellets, take off heat
  • Let sit for 15 minutes, stirring occasionally

(3.) For the Wort
  • Add liquid (1.) & (2.) to fermenter
  • Add 500grams Dextrose & 700grams LDME (there will be NO maltodextrin!)
  • Stir the **** out of it
  • Add ice, cold water etc to bring the temp down
  • Top up to 22ltrs
(4.) For the Yeast
  • Starter prepared previous evening, approx 125ml recycled S-04 trub to 1ltr water, and a couple of carb drops.
  • Allowed to site at room temp in a PET bottle with an Oztops cap (air valve)
  • On pitching day, shake the yeast bottle gently and pour into wort
Providing I'm on the right path as outlined, I suppose the only question is on the hop preparation. Does the 15min addition go in 45 minutes after the first addition, or 60 minutes after (meaning that the first hop addition is actually boiling for 75 minutes) . I'm inclined to look at this as total boil time being 60 minutes.......
 
Go for it Jase. Just to add my 2c I would boil the liquid from the crystal with the LDME in 8 litres, and check to make sure its 8 litres, for 60 min adding the hops to this. you are going to get better hop utilization and will have to do only one boil. Add the caramalt at the end of the boil just mix it in. Good to see no multodextrine as you won't need it.

Cheers
Gavo.

Edit: Just noticed the Hop addition question. 60 min mean 60 minutes from the end of the boil and 15 min means 15 minutes from the end of the boil, so a 15 min would be 45 after the 60 min addition. Hope that makes some sense.
 
(3.) For the Wort
  • Add liquid (1.) & (2.) to fermenter
  • Add 500grams Dextrose & 700grams LDME (there will be NO maltodextrin!)
  • Stir the **** out of it
  • Add ice, cold water etc to bring the temp down
  • Top up to 22ltrs

Jase,
From what I understand the stirring to remove **** should be done after cooling the wort. Should avoid aerating hot wort.

Nige
 
Jase,
From what I understand the stirring to remove **** should be done after cooling the wort. Should avoid aerating hot wort.

Nige

You don't want to aerate the hot wort as nige said...but some ldme is a bastard to disolve in cold water. I would suggest add the ldme to the hot pot right at the end, jsut before coming off the stove, that way you should be able to stir it gently to disolve in about 30 seconds....dex on the other hand will disolve if you look at it wrong, so that can go in hot or cold.
 

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