2124 - Bohemian Lagar Advice

[JonnyAnchovy]

Hi guys,

I just whacked a (admittedly 5 month old) smackpack of 2124 on the the stir plate last night to make up a 2.25L starter, and by this morning there was no real signs of activity. I was hoping for it to be fermenting wildly away ready to pitch this afternoon/evening.

Have you guys found this to be a particularly slow starter?

 

[brettprevans]

stepping up to a 2.25L starter straight off the bat isnt advised. it will stress the yeast and take longer to start. slowly step it up. you also should have smacked the pack and waited for it to swell before chucking it on the stir plate. you probably just need to give it time and maybe a little bit of warmth to help the yeast along.

if im reading your post wrong, sorry.

 

[tdh]

Is it between 20-30*C?
Starter strength not too high?
If not then she's simply a tad unfresh.

tdh

 

[tdh]

I wouldn't call a 2.25 litre starter excessively large. If a pack is fresh and a 20 litre wort is warm and not to high in SG then even that will ferment.

tdh

 

[brettprevans]

Is it between 20-30*C?
tdh

around 20C would do for a lager yeast. not sure id go any higher. just my opinion.

Starter strength not too high?
tdh

good point. your aiming for an SG of ~1040 in the starter.

she's simply a tad unfresh.
tdh

quite possibly, so give it a bit more time. 5 months though isnt too bad.

I wouldn't call a 2.25 litre starter excessively large.
tdh

its too large to go from a smack pack sraight into 2.25L of starter. you should step the starter up. so smack pack in say 500-800ml, then double it.
pitching 2.25L of starter for a lager is fine provided the yeast has taken off. im not debating the pitch size. im talking about making the starter

 

[Fourstar]

I'd say you just have some lag and it is infact munching away with no visible krausen. Ive been stepping up my slant of 2124 for the past 5 days and she will be ready to go at my pitching rate come tomorrow~. Only as of this monring i can see visible krausen. after a chill and decant on sunday i could see visible amounts of yeast growth so dont fret. shes probabaly growing, just not as fast as you imagine.

 

[brettprevans]

shes probabaly growing, just not as fast as you imagine.

+1. its a lager yeast remember. if your temp is low, its ferments/grows slowly. they take longer.

 

[JonnyAnchovy]

stepping up to a 2.25L starter straight off the bat isnt advised. you also should have smacked the pack and waited for it to swell before chucking it on the stir plate.

I'm not stepping up from slants - this was from a wyeast smack pack - had success doing this with other yeasts in the past.

totally agree about smacking in advance - if for nothing else other than to prove the yeast.

Is it between 20-30*C?
Starter strength not too high?
If not then she's simply a tad unfresh.

Temp and gravity are both OK - 220g of DMY in 2.25 L of water @around 19-20. This is also the oldest smack pack I've used - so maybe the viability is just way low........

 

[JonnyAnchovy]

I'd say you just have some lag and it is infact munching away with no visible krausen. Ive been stepping up my slant of 2124 for the past 5 days and she will be ready to go at my pitching rate come tomorrow~. Only as of this monring i can see visible krausen. after a chill and decant on sunday i could see visible amounts of yeast growth so dont fret. shes probabaly growing, just not as fast as you imagine.

+1. its a lager yeast remember. if your temp is low, its ferments/grows slowly. they take longer.

Thanks guys - won't go flushing anything just yet - might just have to postpone the brewday until the weekend. GR!

 

[brettprevans]

i quite often forget about the yeast and find myself having to wait to pitch. thats what i love the most about pitching yeastcake. no need to wait for a starter to build.

if your really worried throw in some yeast nutrient (or boiled up generic yeast thats been cooled - makes great nutrient).

 

[tdh]

From smack pack to 2.25l starter is definitely not too large. Have you tried it?
And you can go to high 20's with any beer yeast. You're making yeast, not drinkable beer. Pour the spent wort off before pitching your starter.

tdh

 

[Guest Lurker]

From smack pack to 2.25l starter is definitely not too large.
tdh

I remember Dave Logsdon bemoaning in a talk people who pitch a smack pack into a "pint" starter. His point was that kind of wakes the yeast up, and gets it a bit active, but it doesnt provide enough volume to get it reproducing, and its better to step to a couple of litres.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

A smack pack into 2.25L is perfectly fine for a fresh smack pack - for a 5 month old one I say you probably should have started in 500ml and stepped up through 1L and then 2+L. As is you should end up with about (calculated via Mr Malty) 200 billion cells which is enough for 11 or so litres of normal strength beer. I'd ferment out that 2.25L starter, decant and add another 1.5 - 2.0L of wort .. that will get you more than enough cells for 23L of standard strength lager.

Smacking the pack and letting it swell serves little to no purpose if you are making a starter - if you smack it just before you pour it into the starter... well you get a tiny bit more nutrient. Smacking wyeast packs is not to get the yeast ready for anything.. its just a method for proving the yeast without having to open the pack

 

[JonnyAnchovy]

Still no action at all..... just thought about an outside possibility - my stur plate is brand new, made from an old PC case fan with blue LEDs..... these things don't emit UV light do they...? :unsure:

 

[Screwtop]

I remember Dave Logsdon bemoaning in a talk people who pitch a smack pack into a "pint" starter. His point was that kind of wakes the yeast up, and gets it a bit active, but it doesnt provide enough volume to get it reproducing, and its better to step to a couple of litres.

I remember him saying this in Brisbane too.

A smack pack into 2.25L is perfectly fine for a fresh smack pack - for a 5 month old one I say you probably should have started in 500ml and stepped up through 1L and then 2+L. As is you should end up with about (calculated via Mr Malty) 200 billion cells which is enough for 11 or so litres of normal strength beer. I'd ferment out that 2.25L starter, decant and add another 1.5 - 2.0L of wort .. that will get you more than enough cells for 23L of standard strength lager.

Smacking the pack and letting it swell serves little to no purpose if you are making a starter - if you smack it just before you pour it into the starter... well you get a tiny bit more nutrient. Smacking wyeast packs is not to get the yeast ready for anything.. its just a method for proving the yeast without having to open the pack

This is how I used to do it to TB, but found that pitching only the slurry from the 2L into another 2L of fresh wort only got the yeast into stage 2 with little cell growth, was better pitched into 4L or 6L. Slurry recovered from pitching into a second 2L was almost the same volume as the first.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[wobbly]

Patience is what you need. I had a 30 month old Wyeast 2000 Budvar that took about a week to 10 days to start to swell the pack and I then stepped it up in 500mls and got a small amount of air lock activity after a further week before I stepped it up to 2lt and after about another 3 or 4 days it took off.

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[Thirsty Boy]

This is how I used to do it to TB, but found that pitching only the slurry from the 2L into another 2L of fresh wort only got the yeast into stage 2 with little cell growth, was better pitched into 4L or 6L. Slurry recovered from pitching into a second 2L was almost the same volume as the first.

Cheers,

Screwy

Yeah, I find the same thing if I am pitching a fairly fresh smack pack - only a small amount of growth if you chuck 2L on top of the yeast from 2L - but in this instance, because his pack was old, I think the OP will be getting considerably less cells in his original starter (about equal to a fresh smack pack pitched into a 1L [ish] starter) - so I think he will get growth out of his second 2L and it should get him to just about the right pitch rate - give or take 50billion cells

Normally I would be looking at a 4L starter from the 2L yeast ..... and thats as big as I can go without multiple starter vessels. But that's usually near enough anyway.