What Would Like To Brew?

[Tony]

Hey what would like to brew an auisse or german brew :beerbang:

 

[matti]

Howdy pssed tone cannt spell either hehehe
To answer your question...
I want to brew an Australian malt lager with with german noble hop.
Thinking of a single decoction, but not sure if its suitable to aussies well modified malts.
Also is all aussie malts still 2-row or have they gone six row?

 

[PostModern]

Howdy pssed tone cannt spell either hehehe
To answer your question...
I want to brew an Australian malt lager with with german noble hop.
Thinking of a single decoction, but not sure if its suitable to aussies well modified malts.
Also is all aussie malts still 2-row or have they gone six row?

afaik, we're still getting two row. I think you could pull a decoction and not totally destroy head retension if you only pull a small amount. I prefer to use a bit of melanoidin malt and let the maltster do the work.

 

[matti]

Ah fooohk you say hey...
I tought that decoction was to emprove the head an d the toalt amalyze effect oph the mash.

Cheers for the response yer old wolf
And bye the'er way
Will the melanoidin add alot of flavour to a lager??
Got to read up some more darrrn

 

[matti]

Just filled me brain on melanoidin malt and believe these are expexted to used in small amounts and malters are not very concerned of quality.

I believe an Aussie malt with Kolch recipe coming on

 

[PostModern]

Ah fooohk you say hey...
I tought that decoction was to emprove the head an d the toalt amalyze effect oph the mash.

Cheers for the response yer old wolf
And bye the'er way
Will the melanoidin add alot of flavour to a lager??
Got to read up some more darrrn

Decoctions only really help with (deliberately) undermodified malts. We get fully modified malt here, so decocting can actually harm the profile of the beer. I have only tried it once, back in my partial days, and didn't notice enough difference to continue the method. ymmv.

 

[Malnourished]

I think you could pull a decoction and not totally destroy head retension if you only pull a small amount.

What is it about the process of decoction that destroys head retention?

I always thought it was the rest in the 50-55C range which had this effect, not the decocting itself. So all you would have to do to avoid destroying head retention and mouthfeel is not have a rest at these temperatures. Kunze's two-step decoction mash for modern malts is outlined in this great HBD post. The rests are at 62C, 70C and 77C.

Decoctions only really help with (deliberately) undermodified malts.

Decoctions aren't solely a means of extracting sugars from malt. Obviously there's no longer a need to decoct, but they do add their own flavour via Maillard reactions. Obviously it's up to the individual brewer to decide whether that flavour is worth the extra effort and/or sufficiently different from what you can get from melanoidin/Munich/cara malts. But the point is that they do have an effect; how much of an effect is clearly a matter of debate.

 

[warrenlw63]

I'll go non-scientific. I've done quite a few decoction mashes (single and double) and have failed to notice any great difference to warrant the process being undertaken in the first place. These days I'd rather just sub some Munich malt for pils malt or similar.

OTOH It does always seem to lend "something" to a Hefeweizen for what reason I'm not sure. So If I make a wheat I always try (but sometimes don't bother) to do at least a single decoction mash.

Warren -

 

[Tony]

ahhhhh that wasnt me.

we had a bit of a piss up last night.

looks like the kids found the website and i didnt log off on this computer.

I cant believe it actually sparked off a conversation

top stuff hehe

cheers

 

[Weizguy]

Tony,

Are you sure it was the kids...?

It looks a lot like your spelling <_<

For my 2 cents, in the thread topic: The rest at 50-52 C does not destroy head. That would be ridiculous. The protein rest (allows the protease enzymes to) break down large polypeptides into smaller head-forming proteins. I can only see this as helping the head, and not damaging it.
From my reading, the problem where too much protein degradation has occurred, thus decreasing foam retention, is where excess proteolytic modification has happened in the malt-house.
Always ask the question when someone makes an assertion that sounds plain wrong.

Les out

P.S. rice gulls

 

[Tony]

Yeah it was the kids. My step son owned up

we asked who it was and he sat there with a silly grin on his face while everyone else looked confused.

The sad truth is he can spell better than me

god...... dont let PP see this, with bad advice and all. He will get posting again hehe

I will also back up the point of a protein rest NOT killing head retention. If you leave it at 50 deg overnight you may have problems but it certanly helps the beer i have found. I have made some great beers with decoction mashing. The roggenbier i made was decoction mashed with a 45 minuite protein rest @ 52 deg and 2 decoctions, first up to 67 deg and the second thin one to 76 for mash out.

It holds a head like whiped cream. you can scoop it up with your finger.

cheers

 

[Malnourished]

For my 2 cents, in the thread topic: The rest at 50-52 C does not destroy head. That would be ridiculous. The protein rest (allows the protease enzymes to) break down large polypeptides into smaller head-forming proteins. I can only see this as helping the head, and not damaging it.
From my reading, the problem where too much protein degradation has occurred, thus decreasing foam retention, is where excess proteolytic modification has happened in the malt-house.
Always ask the question when someone makes an assertion that sounds plain wrong.

I reckon it's you that sounds plain wrong.

It depends on the type of malt you're using, and the desired end result, but it's widely accepted that extended time in the traditional protein rest range has the potential to break down proteins to the point of negatively affecting head retention and body.

It's why George Fix amended his 40/50/60/70C mash schedule to 40/60/70C.

Peptidases (which make amino acids out of proteins of all sizes) are well and truly active at 50C, so you WILL reduce the number of medium molecular weight proteins. Obviously this doesn't guarantee poor head retention and reduced mouthfeel, but there is no need to produce amino acids because modern malts already contain plenty. Resting at temperatures closer to 60C is recommended for creating more MMWPs because peptidases are far less active at higher temperatures.

This effect is magnified in a decoction mash because the main mash has to rest in the proteolytic range whilst you perform the saccharification rest and boil on the decoction.

Obviously there's a cumulative effect between what happens in the malt-house and the mash tun, but if modern malts are designed to contain the "right" mix of MMWPs (for head/body) and amino acids (for yeast nutrition) with just an infusion mash, you can hardly blame the maltster for "excess proteolytic modification" when you perform a protein rest.

And Tony - I suspect the effect you see with your roggenbier is due to the rye, which obviously has a very different protein content to barley malts, hence the need for a protein rest.

 

[PostModern]

What is it about the process of decoction that destroys head retention?

I always thought it was the rest in the 50-55C range which had this effect, not the decocting itself. So all you would have to do to avoid destroying head retention and mouthfeel is not have a rest at these temperatures. Kunze's two-step decoction mash for modern malts is outlined in this great HBD post. The rests are at 62C, 70C and 77C.
Decoctions aren't solely a means of extracting sugars from malt. Obviously there's no longer a need to decoct, but they do add their own flavour via Maillard reactions. Obviously it's up to the individual brewer to decide whether that flavour is worth the extra effort and/or sufficiently different from what you can get from melanoidin/Munich/cara malts. But the point is that they do have an effect; how much of an effect is clearly a matter of debate.

Like I said, why waste the time and energy? Let the maltster do the work and just chuck in 4-5% melanoidin malt. All the benefits of the single infusion mash, and the melanoidins from the maltster.

Yeah it was the kids. My step son owned up

we asked who it was and he sat there with a silly grin on his face while everyone else looked confused.

The sad truth is he can spell better than me

god...... dont let PP see this, with bad advice and all. He will get posting again hehe

I will also back up the point of a protein rest NOT killing head retention. If you leave it at 50 deg overnight you may have problems but it certanly helps the beer i have found. I have made some great beers with decoction mashing. The roggenbier i made was decoction mashed with a 45 minuite protein rest @ 52 deg and 2 decoctions, first up to 67 deg and the second thin one to 76 for mash out.

It holds a head like whiped cream. you can scoop it up with your finger.

cheers

How much rye was in that Roggenbier? Perhaps head destruction is not an issue with the right grain bill, but why go to the trouble and spend all that time if 99% of the benefit of decocting can come from the addition of an extra ingredient?

EDIT: I'm not trying to say there is no benefit from decoctions, but that there are alternative,easier ways to get the same benefit. I'm willing to be convinced...

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Its bad when young kids who cant spell , spark a debate on AHB

:lol:

 

[matti]

Well well I say,
Even a mischievous mail can do wonders.
Let's rename this
Thread Decoction or not?
Which malt would you use?
!?

Just to add that my two decoctions i've made had great head on both and lace down the glass 'til the las drop.
I used Australian pale malt as base and 25 % pilsner malt.
A 50/50 partial.
I intend to go the full hog Ag whith my next pilsner
That if i can spell KLSCH right let alone brew it before i do the pils
Great thread.

I will when time allows do a search on rescent decoction threads and see what I get. just for u PP hehehe
matti

 

[Tony]

The Roggenbier had 40% rye malt in it.

I dont attribute the beers head retention to the decoction mash, i was just trying to make the point that it didnt kill the head retention. I am sure it was the rye....... the beer has a whole different texture to it, its creamy smooth and full in the mouth. when you pour it in the glass the bubbles rise slowly and form a tight head like in guinness.

On the Melanoiden malt thing........ i got some a while back and put 5% in lots of beers i made to try the get the decoction flavor, mainly because we had twins and i didnt have time or was too bloody tired to do a decoction.
It wasnt the same and i actually didnt like the flavor it left. I went back to doing decoctions for beers that i felt needed it like oktoberfest and the roggenbier.
The flavor difference doesnt slap you in the face, it wont make a crap beer into a medal winner.
Its like the difference betwqeen a steak cooked in a fry pan and one cooked over a flame grill. It still tastes like stark but it has a bit of something extra.

I will also vouch for the decoction mash for a wheat beer. I havnt done a decoction for a year or so now, mainly because all i have brewed is pale ales, bitters, ect but i have some oktoberfest planned for you guessed it...... october and a wheat beer very soon.

I will be busting off the old pots soon i think and chucking out whats left of the melanoiden....... id say its stale by now.

cheers

 

[tangent]

ok, now... was that Tony?

 

[Tony]

:lol:

I am logged off on all but my laptop

all poor spelling will now be me

:unsure:

cheers

 

[tangent]

welcome back Tony
so are we to say that Melanoidin is the MSG of brewing?

 

[Tony]

IMO...... yeah.

I love munich........ i buy it in 25 kg bags, but i just cant come to the melanoiden malt

natural melanoidens created by the "cooking" process in a decoction mash wins for me.

Im not saying Melanoiden malt is bad or crap.......... its just that i dont like it much....... thats all.

cheers