Graduation Ale

[Dave86]

Well as the title suggests I'm going to brew a commemorative graduation ale when I can get organised (possibly around the time of the actual graduation next year ) Basically the recipe I have is based from some info I found here

This is what I have so far:

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Graduation Ale
Brewer: Dave
Asst Brewer:
Style: English Barleywine
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 20.00 L
Boil Size: 32.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.131 SG
Estimated Color: 15.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 74.9 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
12.50 kg Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (5.6 SRM) Grain 100.00 %
40.00 gm Styrian Goldings [4.40 %] (Dry Hop 6 days Hops -
57.00 gm Challenger [7.90 %] (90 min) Hops 40.1 IBU
50.00 gm Northdown [6.90 %] (30 min) Hops 22.1 IBU
40.00 gm Styrian Goldings [4.40 %] (20 min) (Aroma Hops -
90.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.10 %] (10 min) Hops 12.7 IBU
1 Pkgs Champagne Yeast (White Labs #WLP715) Yeast-Champag
1 Pkgs Bavarian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2206) Yeast-Lager


I've asked a couple of questions about yeast and reiterated, or "doble-doble", mashing here and here respectively. I've not brewed a beer this big before and definately not all malt. So I was after some advice for brewing a beer like this

1. The recipe: The malt I'm happy to go with, I think I'll get some floor malted maris otter from ross. The hopping is just something I came up with after looking around, feel free to tear it to shreds and advise on how it might be improved. I am looking for a lot of hop flavour and aroma while it's young as it will only diminish.

2. The mash: Any advice on doble-doble would be welcome. Also wondering about the mash temp seeing as I'll be adding champagne yeast in secondary. Should I mash as low as possible (62-63) or try and retain some more dextrins. Haven't picked a champagne yeast yet, this is just what was in beersmith. Haven't used champagne yeast before, so not sure what to expect in terms of attenuation.

3. Water profile: Haven't bothered to look into this in detail before but remember reading somewhere (perhaps the "what we learnt at the anhc" thread?) What is an optimal profile for english barleywine? Will have to find an analysis of condo water once I move back (it tastes terrible )

4. The boil: 90 minutes? Just read in the reiterated mash thread about the loss of head in extended boiling, so would like to avoid this

5. The ferment: What temp to ferment a lager yeast for what should be an ale? Anyone tried the 2206 at higher temps? Was planning on perhaps brewing a munich helles to build a nice yeast cake to pitch straight onto. What temp for champagne yeast? Which champagne yeast? How long in secondary?

6. Bottling: Dose with fresh yeast? (probably) Prime at all or a slight amount of sugar (1-2g/L)?

Well, that's all I can think of for the moment, I'm sure I'll have more questions later though!

Cheers in advance

Dave

 

[Dave86]

Just realised I didn't finish typing for the third question. Should read:

Water profile: Haven't bothered to look into this in detail before but remember reading somewhere (perhaps the "what we learnt at the anhc" thread?) that water profiles are especially important to get right in these big beers. What is an optimal profile for english barleywine? Will have to find an analysis of condo water once I move back (it tastes terrible )

 

[Stuster]

Ok, there are a lot of questions in there, not all of which I know the answers to, so I'll just throw out the ideas that come to mind.

First, I think if you're going to make an English Barleywine, I'd go with an English yeast, probably something like WLP007 which is supposed to be good with high gravity worts. I'd also not bother with champagne yeast at all. I haven't used it, but from those who have, the majority seem to find it doesn't really work that well and can leave a beer that's very dry, not something you want for an English barleywine.

Mash low. 90 minute boil should be fine.

Water profile really depends on your water. What water do you have to start with?

Carbonation. I'd add some fresh yeast at bottling time. This should have an extended secondary and with the high alcohol levels, adding more yeast is a better bet. Do add sugar. You really want to know that it's finished fermenting by the time you bottle it. It's more or less impossible at our level to know how much more it will ferment if it's not done, which could end in tears.

 

[Dave86]

Cheers stuster, The only reason I considered a lager yeast was that from the reading I did on thomas hardy ale (misnomer perhaps!) that they used a bavarian lager yeast apparently, at least when eldridge pope were brewing it. I thought it may be a bit more reliable to chew through such a big wort. I suppose if I brew a bitter before hand I should have a healthy cake either way.

Water wise I just after something to aim for. Burton style water? I don't know what the water I'll be using is like, but I'm sure I can do the adjustments (plenty of chemistry and calcs at uni )

Good point about the bottling and ferment, give the long rest (6 months?) and dose with something fresh with some sugar

Cheers

Dave

 

[Stuster]

With the water, I'm not a believer in adjusting to place like that. I'd just try to balance the residual alkalinity. If you have done chemistry at uni, it's really not hard. Have a look at Palmer's section on water chemistry, here. I think for a barleywine you really want to emphasise the malts, so if you add anything the most likely will be calcium chloride. But it does depend on your water. Do you know what your local tap water is like?

I think most ale yeasts can do just as well as lager yeasts, and I don't doubt that some should be fine with that sort of gravity as long as you treat them right. Making a smaller beer before hand is definitely the way to go. And then make sure you give it plenty of oxygen to start off however you do that.

 

[Dave86]

Not sure on what the water is like exactly, it smells awful! I'll ask the local guys if I can get an analysis. Haven't really bothered with my water chemistry yet here in orange and probably won't in condo once I'm there either, but want to get it right for this beer. I'll have a look over palmer's stuff a bit later to figure out what needs to be done.

Cheers

Dave

 

[Weizguy]

Beware the "too much yeast" trap.

Too much yeast, in close proximity like to fight. Some odd flavours are thrown during the dust up, and then there's the cannibalism...

I'd thoroughly agree that you will be after a dry beer, but you may dry it out too much.

As for yeast variety, go the poms!
Go the Brit beer experience. W1187 does a good job in big beers, and has dried the hell out of my Eggzhberrrimental Klassik Pale Ale. Maybe a bit too dry, but that's why you're using MO. To put some malt back into a dry ale.
I could rattle off a few yeast such as (in the Wyeast stable, coz it's what's easy to get), ummm, W1028 for a dry beer, W1968 for some fruitiness, W1318, seasonals W1469 and W1026.

With Maris, you should do a 90 minute mash and 90 minute boil, to end up with a great, clear beer.

Flick the Champagne yeast, as it's not going to make the brew taste like beer. You may need to bottle with a little extra yeast. I primed my 13.7% abv Strong ale with sugar and some additional W1028 at bottling. Gassed up quite fine.

Les

 

[Dave86]

Cheers for that piece of advice, I probably would have overpitched. I might scoop a cup (or two) of slurry out of a fermenter instead. Well I'll definately go for an ale yeast then, the question is which. The only british/irish yeasts I've used are the 1968 and the 1084. I have 1469 and 1026 on hand but don't mind getting something else.

I don't want to dry it out too much so am glad of the recommendations to ditch the champagne yeast. I don't mind the body being full but not too sweet, malty but still letting the hops shine while it's young. I guess I'm after the perfect balance

I haven't tried an english barleywine before (but plan to order some thomas hardy ale as soon as I can afford it) The only barleywine I have tried is the murray's anniversary ale (number one) and this would have to be one of the best beers I have tasted. The bottle I drank this june was perfectly balanced between malt and hops while still resembling a honey-like nectar in the glass. This is what I want to recreate, just englishified!

All this reminiscing has made me thirsty, almost thirsty enough to crack my last bottle! It'll wait patiently though while I rustle up an imperial oatmeal stout, or the last bottle of the bluetongue vintage, or an IIPA, or all three...

Cheers

Dave

 

[GMK]

OK - ihave made BW before and got placings/awards for them.

Agree - NO Champagne yeast.
Use a good yeast - i have made an AG BW - no suagar - OG was 1120 - used 1728 Scotish - better for english or 1056 - will be a bit fruitier.

I have bottled some BW at 1025-1030 - with no priming. Adding fresh yeast at bottling is a good idea. Will take 6months to carbonate but you dont get any bottle bombs and teh BW changes - at 1030 - stil a bit sweet - but as it gasses it drys out.

I have also boiled for 3-4 hours on some BW - the recipe calls for it to get the gravity high enough.
Also used oak in some - eh Thomas Hardy.

But BW can be massive beers - the way I make them - and will age extreemly well.

Hope this helps you out.

 

[Weizguy]

IIRC, to get the beer dry yet remain malty, you should implement some yeast nutrient into the boil.

Yeast frenzy.

Has anyone else seen this? Especially if you use nutrient in the starter wort as well as the primary target beer.

If Young's make a Barley Wine, you could use W1318 to emulate their version.

Anyone care to comment on the "yeast nutrient advantage" that I have experienced?

Any other experts out there? Respect to GMK for his contribution for "options that work"

Reverend Sethule. Testify to yo bruvvas.

 

[Trent]

I would have to tell you to be sure to add sugar to your barleywine when priming/bottling. Also add some more yeast.
I recently (June) did a english barleywine that used WY1028, OG was only 1104, and the yeast clapped out on me at 1.032, after dropping to 15C during a ridiculously cold night, and I never got it to restart, no matter what I tried. I added 2/3 a pack of rehydrated saf dried yeast at bottling, with 5g/L sugar, and it is only JUST starting to show signs of carbonation now, 8 weeks after hitting the bottle.
I did a RIS a few years back that was about 10% alcohol, and I was advised not to add any priming sugar as it will eventually carbonate as the residual sugars ferment out. So, I listened, as I was fairly new to big beers, and now have a case of dead flat RIS sitting under the house - it will be 3 years old this december, and not even the faintest hiss when I crack one open.
Oh yeah, I mashed my barleywine at 65C, it tastes bloody great, I cannot wait for it to carb up fully.
And I would probably add some crystal in there, but thats just me - I use it in all my british style beers.
Good luck with it, but I would avoid both the champagne yeast, and the lager yeast....
All the best
Trent
PS I use yeast nutrient in every one of my beers, and they all have good solid ferments, are done with quickly, and rarely any off flavours, etc... I noticed that my ferments seemed to improve after I started using the stuff about a year back, and would heartily recommend using it in your b/w, it certainly wont hurt. Dont know about yeast frenzy but they certainly seem happy.

 

[Dave86]

Thanks again fellas

I always add a big tablespoon of bakers yeast to the start of my boil. I can't really remember when I started doing this, but like a lot of those little things, I'm not going to stop as it seems to be working

Fresh yeast is a definate at bottling then. The two biggest beers I've done (the imperial stout and IIPA in my signature) only got 36 and 14 days respectively before being bottled (from initial pitch). With both of the beers I didn't add fresh yeast, I figured they weren't in the fermenter that long (relatively) and I dosed the stout with 7g/L of DME and the IPA with 9.6g/L of dextrose. The IPA had sugar in the recipe and an OG of 1078, so I figured it was fairly safe to assume it had finished fermenting.

With this one I'll give it a nice long secondary (3-6 months) and dose with fresh yeast and a small amount of sugar I think (best to go middle of the road perhaps?)

Cheers

Dave

 

[Weizguy]

Yes, be careful not to overcarbonate. You don't want to have to de-gas/vent your bottles.
Barleywine does well with a low carbonation level. Just enough to support the flavours, but not so much as to cover them with excess fizz and the attendant carbonic bite/ sharpness.

That reminds me that I'm prob due for a tasting of my Strong ale, which is over 6 years old now. At more than 13% ABV, it will be tasty for a while, or as long as it lasts.