First Wort Hopping

[razz]

Can some of you learned fellows please help me fill in the correct IBU's for my FWH'd ale please. When I formulated the recipe in Beersmith I did not notice that the IBU's were not calculated for the first wort hops. I did notice, after sampling the wort post boil, that the wort was very bitter. What boil time should I have used for FW hops? Apologies to Tony for adding sugar to his recipe, I missed the post boil gravity so I added the sugar to keep with the numbers.

Tony's LCBA
American Pale Ale


Type: All Grain
Date: 27/11/2008
Batch Size: 40.00 L
Brewer: JD
Boil Size: 43.72 L Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: My Equipment
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 83.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.50 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 63.83 %
1.00 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (6.9 EBC) Grain 14.18 %
0.60 kg Carahell (Weyermann) (25.6 EBC) Grain 8.51 %
0.50 kg Wheat Malt (3.0 EBC) Grain 7.09 %
19.95 gm Cascade 07 [6.30 %] (30 min) Hops 5.9 IBU
19.95 gm B Saaz (Motueka) [8.20 %] (30 min) Hops 7.7 IBU
29.93 gm Cascade 07 [6.30 %] (15 min) Hops 5.8 IBU
29.93 gm B Saaz (Motueka) [8.20 %] (15 min) Hops 7.5 IBU
40.00 gm B Saaz (Motueka) [8.20 %] (0 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops -
40.00 gm Cascade 07 [6.30 %] (0 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops -
0.95 gm koppafloc (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
20.00 gm PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 90.0 min) Misc
0.45 kg Cane (Beet) Sugar (3.0 EBC) Sugar 6.38 %
1 Pkgs US05 Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.046 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.046 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.010 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.011 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.70 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 4.56 %
Bitterness: 26.9 IBU Calories: 429 cal/l
Est Color: 8.3 EBC Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: My Mash Total Grain Weight: 6.60 kg
Sparge Water: 0.96 L Grain Temperature: 20.0 C
Sparge Temperature: 78.0 C TunTemperature: 20.0 C
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.2 PH

My Mash Step Time Name Description Step Temp
80 min Step Add 24.37 L of water at 69.6 C 65.0 C
10 min Mashout Heat to 77.0 C over 10 min 77.0 C
15 min sparge Add 25.00 L of water at 83.2 C 80.0 C



Mash Notes:
Carbonation and Storage

Carbonation Type: Kegged (Forced CO2) Volumes of CO2: 2.7
Pressure/Weight: 96.5 KPA Carbonation Used: -
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 4.0 C Age for: 28.0 days
Storage Temperature: 3.0 C

Notes


Created with BeerSmith

 

[newguy]

I've only FWH a couple of times - I didn't like the flavour of the resulting beer so I haven't done it in a while. Anyway, I counted the FWH as the same as a boil addition for IBU calcs and the bitterness seemed right. If your boil is 60 min, I'd count them the same as a 60 min kettle addition.

 

[warra48]

This question intrigued me, so I ran up a test recipe in BeerSmith to see what it did with FWH and 60 minute additions.

I just added 5 kg Pale malt, and then this is what it calculated for me:
20 gr Cascade 5.5% FWH 13.4 IBU
20 gr Cascade 5.5% 60 min 12.2 IBU
Total IBUs 25.6

It seems to me BeerSmith does calculate IBUs for FWH, and adds about 10% additional IBUs for FWH as against a simple 60 min addition.

Are you sure your set up in BeerSmith doesn't calculate IBUs for you for FWH? I know it isn't reflected in the recipe printed in your post, but have you checked in the actual BeerSmith recipe in your system?
However, it also seems to me that adding 80 grams of hops for a FWH addition, even for a 40 litre batch is rather heavier than what I'd plan. Maybe the result you are tasting is correct for the actual additions you made?

 

[razz]

Going by Newguy's theory I would have to make them 90 mins and would have a 72 IBU beer.
Warra, I understand that Beersmith allows slightly more for FWH. I checked the options and it does this. I assumed Beersmith would make the necessary IBU calcs when I added the hops as FWH but it didn't do it. The IBU value was nil. Yes, what I am tasting does appear to be correct for the amount of hops I've used.

 

[razz]

Just thought I'd bump this for the evening crowd.

 

[Stuster]

It hasn't calculated any IBUs because you've put it in as a 0 minute addition. :lol:

Edit: Adding evidence. B)

40.00 gm B Saaz (Motueka) [8.20 %] (0 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops -
40.00 gm Cascade 07 [6.30 %] (0 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops -

 

[sinkas]

I have never understood why FWH get a lower IBU attribution that 60 min additions in ProMAsh

 

[jimi]

Quite a few very respected brewers have told me they estimate FWH useage as equivalent to 50min additions a couple even less. I think a few of Barry's recipes adopt this thinking - check the DB. And Barry has a truck load of awards. Most just reckon it works and nonone has really explained (to my basic way of understanding) why.

 

[razz]

Jimi, that's the crux of what I'm getting at. How many minutes should I have entered into Beersmith? I read here some time ago that people were allowing 20 mins boil time.
Stuster, words fail me ! B)

 

[Stuster]

I have the utilisation for FWH set at -10% for reasons that once made sense to me but I have forgotten my reasoning and am not sure it's quite right any more. Jamil and Denny in the US did a test, got them analyzed and it seems that FWH added slightly more than a 60 minute addition,10% more in fact. Makes sense since they're in the boil longer. That was not how the bitterness was perceived though, as it appears it tasted less bitter. How it works it still not clear AFAIK. You can read about the original experiments in summary here if you're interested.

And to answer your question, razz, I set it for how long your boil is, since that's how long the hops will be boiling for. :icon_cheers:

 

[razz]

Thanks Stuster.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

FWH is it a urban mythe ? Dont know ,have not tried it but it seems like a waste of good hops IMHO. Most beers I taste these days go for a big hop finish, not that that is my style but that is the trend for non Pils brewers.
GB

 

[sinkas]

FWH is it a urban mythe ? Dont know ,have not tried it but it seems like a waste of good hops IMHO. Most beers I taste these days go for a big hop finish, not that that is my style but that is the trend for non Pils brewers.
GB

What?

I think it does somehting to the bitterness of or contributes a different flavour, I think it tends to add a hops profile complexity

Anyhow whatever, I am pleased to see jamils and denny's experiment seems to follow the tract of common sense

 

[Stuster]

FWH is it a urban mythe ? Dont know ,have not tried it but it seems like a waste of good hops IMHO. Most beers I taste these days go for a big hop finish, not that that is my style but that is the trend for non Pils brewers.
GB

Well, the original tests were reported in the mid 1990s by George Fix (who I guess you know is a proper brewing scientist), based on some German research. The first beers they did it with were Pilsners using Saaz and Tettnang. They did gas chromatography and it did appear to do something different. Maybe have a look at the link I posted above or see what Fix has to say about it on the HBD here.

 

[NeilArge]

Well, the original tests were reported in the mid 1990s by George Fix (who I guess you know is a proper brewing scientist), based on some German research. The first beers they did it with were Pilsners using Saaz and Tettnang. They did gas chromatography and it did appear to do something different. Maybe have a look at the link I posted above or see what Fix has to say about it on the HBD here.

That was excellent, Stuster. I enjoyed reading that. I have seen on the Northern Brewer website some discussion of this, and I think the consensus was that FWH was the equivalent of a 20 min. addition (in terms of IBUs only). Or am I thinking of mash hopping? Better check... :unsure:
Yep, according to Denny Conn, FWH = 20 min. hop addition.

 

[newguy]

That was excellent, Stuster. I enjoyed reading that. I have seen on the Northern Brewer website some discussion of this, and I think the consensus was that FWH was the equivalent of a 20 min. addition (in terms of IBUs only). Or am I thinking of mash hopping? Better check... :unsure:

I mash hop quite a bit, and I count the mash addition as being equivalent to a 9-10 minute addition. I started off @ 20, but the calculated IBU didn't quite mesh with how the finished beers tasted, so I started counting it as a 7 min addition and it still wasn't quite right. Now that I use 9 - 10 minutes, the calculated IBU level seems to better match the flavour. At least to my tastebuds, anyway.

 

[razz]

Righto, that's enough for me. I'm going with a 10 minute addition and will see how it tastes after it's fermented out. This will still give me a 42.5 IBU beer for an SG of 46. I can live with that. Thanks everyone for your valued input.

 

[NeilArge]

I mash hop quite a bit, and I count the mash addition as being equivalent to a 9-10 minute addition. I started off @ 20, but the calculated IBU didn't quite mesh with how the finished beers tasted, so I started counting it as a 7 min addition and it still wasn't quite right. Now that I use 9 - 10 minutes, the calculated IBU level seems to better match the flavour. At least to my tastebuds, anyway.

Hi Newguy,

That's interesting that you mash hop. I'm only a relative newbie AGer but I have tried this a couple of times and really like the subtle aroma and flavour characters imparted. I know it gets a pretty bad rap ('what a waste of hops!' I hear them say). I'd agree that mash hopping, in terms of IBUs, is akin to a 10 min. addition. But it is more than the sum of its parts I think.

Cheers

TunOfGrunt

 

[jimi]

I've noticed that both mash hopping and FWH have been raised in this thread and I thought I might state (what is probably obvious to most) - that they are not the same.
FWH is hops in with the first runnings after the mash - mash hopping is hops in with the mash.

 

[newguy]

That's interesting that you mash hop. I'm only a relative newbie AGer but I have tried this a couple of times and really like the subtle aroma and flavour characters imparted. I know it gets a pretty bad rap ('what a waste of hops!' I hear them say). I'd agree that mash hopping, in terms of IBUs, is akin to a 10 min. addition. But it is more than the sum of its parts I think.

I know. I've taken hell from members of my club who poo-poo the idea. Generally they can't imagine that it would be of any use, but it adds such a gentle (and distinctive) flavour and aroma. I've converted a couple of them, though. One of them brought his ESB to a meeting and it raised a lot of eyebrows. Someone asked how much he used to dry hop and their eyes almost popped out when he said "I didn't."

I'm definitely a mash hop convert. Can I get an amen? :lol: