First Biab - Forgot The Irish Moss

[Nodrog]

got my first BIAB under my belt, almost, a few weeks ago.
I forgot to add the irish Moss at the end of the boil, but apart from that all seemed good, 10 days in the FV, smelt bleedin' marvellous, and into bottles 2 weeks ago, ish.

bottles have firmed up nicely, seem to be carbed, but are still incredibly cloudy. There is no sign of any of the yeast having settled at the bottom of the bottles. This is the first time I've used anything other than the 'kit yeast', is it something to be expected with S-04?

They've been in the garage at 14-16C, probably a bit on the cool side, but do seem to be carbing ok. I put one bottle in the fridge 2 days ago, but that's made no difference.

Is there anything that could be done to clear up the beer? or should I just get on with it and get them consumed?!

 

[Bribie G]

Irish moss (Whirlfloc etc) coagulates and settles the hot break in the wort, and has nothing to do with yeast settlement. Even the most stubborn yeast should clear out in a couple of weeks. What was the recipe and could it be something else causing the haze, such as a starch haze from adjuncts that didn't get converted? Or did a lot of hot break end up in the wort causing a protein haze maybe?




Was it a full volume BIAB or a stove top brew?

Edit: you say that fridging the bottles doesn't make a difference, so it's almost certainly not cold break - which is the major source of chill haze, which leaves the two major suspects as protein haze or starch haze. Either way, at this stage I'd just drink it and enjoy, but if you would like to post details of your setup and the recipe then we might spot something that can help you avoid the problems next time. Cheers. :icon_cheers:

 

[Nodrog]

Thanks Bribie, will pop one open shortly and get some pics if i can.
it was a small brew, done on a burner outisde, but essentially following stove top as my pot is only 17litres.3

Copied from another post, this is what I did, sorry if its a bit long, I'm not up on which are the important bits of info, so will tell everything i wrote down!

Grain Bill
2kgs of UK Pale Ale English Malt - I'd worked out I needed 1.8kgs but LHBS said just to throw it all in.
200g of Crystal Malt
Crushed for me by LHBS

Heated 10litres of water to 75 Deg C, put grain into water, in bag, and gave it a good mix around.
Measure temp, was 70 Deg C, so added 500mls of tap water, was then 66 Deg C, gave it another good mix.
Lid on the pan, wrapped it up in old towels, blanket etc
Left it 60 mins
Unwrapped it, temperature was 63 Deg C

Pulled out bag, let it drain, measured depth, got 10.25 litres by my calcs (at 60 Deg C).
Wondering if I actually put in more than 10 litres, I counted 5x 2litre jugs, plus the 500mls temp adjust, but didn't measure depth to double check. Or is there that much expansion, or did I really only leave 250mls in with the grain?

Took a sample, this measured 1035 OG at 60 Deg C, which when converted to 20 Deg is I think quite a lot, 1050+?

Anyway, put the bag into a bucket, added another 1.7litres of water at 70 Deg C and gave it all a good slosh and let it drain again.
This yielded another 1.5 litres, ish, with an OG of 1.016 at 60Deg C.

A took another sample here, and let it cool down to 20 Deg C. OG=1.046, this was before boiling it.

This seemed higher than I expected, and as it came up to the boil I realised i could probably get more in the kettle ( 17 litre, supposedly) than I thought. So I added another 1.7 Litres of boiling water from the kettle.

Brought it up to the boil, it looked like some kid of swamp monster from rotorua.
used a ladle from the kitchen to take the scum off the top as it started boiling, wasn't very succesful it getting all of it and probably took another 300mls of liquid out.

Anyway, boiled away, I only want to use one type of hop, and the LHBS only had one type suitable for an english bitter.
Willemette Pelletts, AA=4.5 %, a 100g bag.

I don't have accurate scales, so typed the numbers as best I could into "the beer recipator", Just cos its a cool name, playing with the vols and effeciency until I got something that looked like my OG.

Went with multiples of 12.5 grams of hops, which I did just just splitting a 100g pile of pelletts into halves again and again.
12.5 G at 60mins
25g at 30mins
12.5g at 15mins
and another 12.5g at flame out (just for luck that one).

Lost more water than i thought i would in the boil, so added another 1.7 litres about 5mins before the end, which brought it back up to 12 litres.
5mins to go put the lid on to sterilise it, furious boiling now, but no boil over.
flameout

glad wrap over the top, lid on, put the pot in a large bucket of water.
no water shortages in NZ, so hosepipe in the bucket, bit of a swirl going on, some ice blocks towards the end, and about 40mins later was down to 25 Deg C. I gently swirled the kettle a few times to help it cool, but was this a bad idea? It would have swirled up all the crud??

got about 10litres of clearish wort into the FV, and threw in 1/2 pack rehydrated S04 (recommended by LHBS) and glad wrap over the opening of the cube.

There was 2litres of some pretty sludgy looking stuff left which I poured into a jug which settled with some gladwrap over the top. After a few hours there was about a litre of clearish liquid on the top of it, which is now in the freezer !

I had about 500mls of "green mud" in the bottom of the kettle after that.

The final OG when I'd finished was 1.046

 

[Nick JD]

S04 is a cloudy bugger. Use Gelatine to drop the yeast out at FG.

 

[MHB]

I don't think you have any problem other than impatience.
When you chill a beer it's quite common for haze to form (Chill Haze), it's just protein forming temporary bonds, if you keep the beer cold the condensed protein will eventually settle to the bottom this is called lagering.
Keep the beer cold for a week, don't let it warm back up and I suspect you will see a totally different result.

S-04 has a reputation for being one of the best settling of the yeasts available, it drops like a rock and sticks to the bottom really well contrary to Nick JD opinion.

NHB

 

[Nick JD]

S-04 has a reputation for being one of the best settling of the yeasts available, it drops like a rock and sticks to the bottom really well contrary to Nick JD opinion.

Yeah, that's what it says on their website, but I think you'll find that most people who brew with it think otherwise. A thread just last week had others who have come to the same conclusion.

QUOTE:
"A well-known, commercial English ale yeast, selected for its fast fermentation character and its ability to form a very compact sediment at the end of the fermentation, helping to improve beer clarity."

Let's hear from other users of S04 - who thinks it forms a compact sediment? IMO without fining agents it takes forever to settle out, and when it does it is not compact but fluffy and decanting often disturbs it.

 

[MHB]

As a retailer, I sell thousands of packets of yeast a year, my number 1 seller is US-05 number 2 is S-04 (that's apart from what I use myself), I have hundreds of conversations with brewers using every imaginable yeast and there is an almost universal consensus that S-04 settles better than any other dry yeast.

Frankly Nick after reading your opinion on several issues I don't place much value on what you have to say, sorry for clarity let me rephrase, make that No Value. I won't be discussing this further with you; as you have repeatedly demonstrated a complete inability to engage in anything resembling an informed discussion.

MHB

 

[Bribie G]

Back on topic for the OP

I think what you did was basically ok but I'm just wondering if a fair amount of hot break=proteins got into the FV - it's always a bit of a risk when you are using a system that does not have a tap and are doing a 'pour and hope' routine A couple of things you could try are:

• Use some Irish Moss next time in the last 15 mins of the brew and don't swirl whilst cooling, and let the hot break form a fairly compact layer at the bottom of the pot
• Syphon the wort into the fv, and as you get near the bottom, visually check that the tube isn't dipping into the break layer and is just drawing up clear wort - careful not to cough or breathe over the wort

 

[Nick JD]

As a retailer, I sell thousands of packets of yeast a year, my number 1 seller is US-05 number 2 is S-04 (that's apart from what I use myself), I have hundreds of conversations with brewers using every imaginable yeast and there is an almost universal consensus that S-04 settles better than any other dry yeast.

Frankly Nick after reading your opinion on several issues I don't place much value on what you have to say, sorry for clarity let me rephrase, make that No Value. I won't be discussing this further with you; as you have repeatedly demonstrated a complete inability to engage in anything resembling an informed discussion.

MHB

Frankly mate, I really don't give a shit what value you place on my opinion. I'm not here to sell myself. You are. Pull ya knickers out of your crack and chill a bit.

I've found that S04 is a not very flocculent. The other day someone else commented that they also found this. That's all I've said. Take a deep breath - it'll be okay - sometimes someone in this life might not agree with you. Learn to cope with this.

I still find US05 is more flocculent than S04 contrary to your thousands of customers ... but it's my opinion, so I'm saying it.

It's a web forum not the High Court. :icon_cheers:


I would have thought Wyeast products would be your highest sellers...

 

[Thirsty Boy]

but I think you'll find that most people who brew with it think otherwise

Actually, I dont think you will find that - S04 drops like a rock. So much so that it is notorious for doing just that before its even finished fermenting your brew - the mildly infamous S04 sticking at 1.020 issue.

I have never even so much as heard of it behaving in any other manner before this thread.

Nodrog - I also think your issue is impatience, but I'm not so sure its protein or any other sort of haze. My guess is that the yeast hasn't settled to the bottom simply because it hasn't quite finished fermenting your priming sugar. You have it way too cold for S04... so I think the yeasties are still sluggishly chugging along. Give that bottle in the fridge a few more days and see what happens - the cold will knock the yeast into dormancy and a few days should settle them to the bottom.

And no matter what it is really... put em all in the fridge and ignore them for a month, and they will clear up. Everything settles out eventually.

 

[Nick JD]

Everything settles out eventually.

Maybe it wasn't yeast that I had ... extract brews mainly with S04. It can't have been chill haze - they were cloudy warm and the slightest bump would have the SO4 yeast clouding the bottom half of the bottle.

I got fed up with the stuff and stopped using it. Great taste, lots of fruity esters - but fluffy.

Any brewing practices that cause yeast to not floc?

 

[DUANNE]

lack of calcium?

 

[Nodrog]

could indeed be that? Don't know auckland water chemistry ,but it our drinking water falls into the 'rainforest' / waitakeres, collected in a reservoir, and straight to us, has never been underground or similar. So I expect it is very soft water with few minerals. Stand to be corrected though


Re the yeast, am pleased to report there are signs of some settling in the bottom of the bottles, not a 'hard cake' by any means, but its early days, and it seems one of the brewing skills that I need the most improvement with is patience, not sure if i can manage that, at least not until i've built up some decent stocks!!



oh yeah, and next time, I'll remember the irish moss!

lack of calcium?

 

[thylacine]

Recent experiment where brewers included/omitted Irish Moss (whirlfloc, ect.) http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio

June 10, 2010 - BYO-BBR Irish Moss Experiment

 

[batemanbrewer]

the 4 main ways to improve your brewing (in no particular order)

Have patience.
Clean and sterilize thoroughly (cleanliness is next to godliness ).
Improve your knowledge as much as possible, this forum will help enormously.
Learn from your mistakes <- this is most important for me, I've made plenty of mistakes to learn from :icon_cheers:

Cheers n beers
Mitch

 

[Sydneybrewer]

i actually had this same problem when i done my first couple of BIAB's didn't realize i had to use kettle finnings and the beer was very cloudy as i was also using the tip, pour and hope method. left a couple of bottles in the fridge for 2 weeks and still cloudy, you are going to have to use it as a lesson learned i think.

+1 to bribies advice because when i started using kettle finnings and a syphon the beer is now just as clear as an extract beer.

 

[Bribie G]

Nodrog, I haven't seen "reviled" on the forum lately but he's a keen Auck. brewer as well, doing BIAB and a totally great guy - came over here last year and attended a case swap. Maybe you could PM him and see if he's still around - I know there are a couple more posters from les Isles de Shaky as well. You guys seriously need to get a club going :icon_cheers:

 

[Nodrog]

haha, funny you should mention that man!

- have already been in touch and are trying to arrange a lesson / brew day / catch up some weekend, will remind him again and get onto it. apparently he can't get on this site at work, and no connection at home, so he uses the realbeernz site, but they're pretty hard core there, heaps more newbie info here, thanks all.

planning on next biab tomorrow, so I WILL REMEMBER IRISH MOSS, and am thinking of no-chilling. Correct me if I'm wrong but will that allow the break to settle before transfer to the Fv a day later?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

You allow the break and hops to settle in the kettle - transfer clear wort to your cube, don't be stupidly fussy, clear as you can though.

Then as the cube cools, cold break will form. It is very very light and fluffy - it takes ages to settle into anything like a compact layer, and kicks up really easily. I'm talking days not hours. If you are fussy, you can try and leave it behind... but most people don't really worry too much about cold break and I wouldn't bat an eyelid if you tipped it all into your fermenter... which is what I do.

Irish moss - will not make your beer clearer. It doesn't make breaks, hot or cold happen.. it just makes the particles that form stick into bigger lumps, which settle more quickly, which means you don't have to wait as long before you take clear wort or beer off the top. Basically what you get is clear liquid with chunks in, rather than hazy liquid. Same amount of stuff in it altogether though. But this is all in kettles & fermenters.... By the time beer is in a bottle... your irish moss has finished its job, gone for a beer after work and is at home making sweet love to its missus.

 

[Nodrog]

thanks TB, love the terminology!

2nd brew had the moss treatment yesterday, is bloody cold here, with lots of cold tap water, so just chilled in the kettle again. Much cleaner looking wort into the FV, but tis a stout so also easier to hide my mistakes. After reading your post though i realise I'm probably being a bit too pedantic about letting bits into the FV, and am wasting too much wort because of it.

have tasted the beer in question now, my first AG attempt, and it certainly looks pretty soupy, but man, it just tastes bloody wonderful,

who-hoooo, I man, I make beer!!!! :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers:



And if it too cloudy for mates to drink it, even better, more for me.