Copper Kettle Project

[ausdb]

Hi All
I acquired a large old copper HWS tank a while back from a friend for an unbelievably good price and are going to turn it into my new brew kettle. The main section of the tank is 540mm diameter and 1200mm long which gives rough volume of about 260l if I take off a small amount for the thickness of the copper.

I have a varied arsenal of brewgear based mainly around a 50l esky MLT a 40L urn and a cheap 80l stockpot kettle but find the 80l kettle is a struggle with batches where you want three kegs of finished beer once you take into account losses and cooling. I hopefully have a 120L esky on its way from USA and are currently the custodian of a 150L esky mash lauter tun that can easily hold two bags of grain so 150-200l batches are not out of the question.

The only problem is I am not sure where to make the cut, do I keep it full volume for brewclub monster brewdays or make two smaller kettles which are more manageable?

Please cast your vote

 

[Pete2501]

On a side note I wouldn't be surprised if you could sell all that copper for a hefty sum that would buy you a brand new made SS brew kettle.

 

[Wisey]

I like the copper look.

I have read that the bigger you go, the more chance you'll find your mash will burn on the "hot spot" on the bottom.


Now tell me, whats stopping you working with it on its side? and running a couple of BBQ burners along it - that way you can work with it fairly easy and you dont have to stand on a chair to stir your kettle?

 

[lefty2446]

I voted for just one end but my second choice would be 60/40 would then make a good HLT and Kettle.

Happy brew days ahead!

Adrian

 

[real_beer]

The only problem is I am not sure where to make the cut, do I keep it full volume for brewclub monster brewdays or make two smaller kettles which are more manageable?

Please cast your vote

Two smaller kettles.
If it was wider I think it would be good as one big kettle. Also you would probably want it nicely polished and keeping it looking good might be awkward with a supporting framework fitted around it, but depends on your design I suppose. No doubt you'll get lots of good ideas and suggestions from the forum :icon_cheers: .

 

[QldKev]

I selected the "I really don't give a rats"

no offence but someone had too :super:

QldKev

 

[sinkas]

60 40 then you will have a good sized HLT too,

 

[ausdb]

Thanks for the comments so far

On a side note I wouldn't be surprised if you could sell all that copper for a hefty sum that would buy you a brand new made SS brew kettle.

Why would I sell a copper vessel which is a far better heat conductor to buy a stainless pot?

I have read that the bigger you go, the more chance you'll find your mash will burn on the "hot spot" on the bottom.
Now tell me, whats stopping you working with it on its side? and running a couple of BBQ burners along it - that way you can work with it fairly easy and you dont have to stand on a chair to stir your kettle?

This is a boil kettle only, I know guys using the stainless hot water cylinders of similar dimensions with no scorching issues so this should work even better. As for using on its side once you opened it up it would lose all of its strength and the sides would belly out, plus it would be a bugger to work out how full it was and to whirlpool etc etc

Also you would probably want it nicely polished and keeping it looking good might be awkward with a supporting framework fitted around it, but depends on your design I suppose

I am pretty much a function follows form brewer, if anyone wants it polished they are free to come round and do it :icon_cheers:
I plan on making a stand with a two steel bands that fit around the cylinder and then bolting on three legs of dexion angle so I can adjust the height above the burner. The burner is a NASA on steriods with an ultra high pressure reg.

I have been edging towards the 60/40 split myself but things like this don't come up very often so thanks for your comments so far.

 

[katzke]

I plan on making a stand with a two steel bands that fit around the cylinder and then bolting on three legs of dexion angle so I can adjust the height above the burner. The burner is a NASA on steriods with an ultra high pressure reg.

Can not comment on the size issue.

I can say if you are going copper why not stay with copper bands. Mixing steel and copper just seems like blasphemy in a brewing kettle. If you can not find any suitable material at a recycler I think that some copper water pipe with some copper ground wire stuffed in it would make a nice looking band. You could even go so far as to roll the edge over part of the band to make it not only look nice but make clean up easier then having an edge goop can collect in.

I also vote for polishing it. Good way to get your mooching friends to pay you back for all the home brew they drink. No pint till it shines.

 

[raven19]

I voted 66/33.

But it really depends on your own typical brew day at home imo.

Whatever you go with, a large kettle for big brew days will come in handy.

 

[seravitae]

Why would I sell a copper vessel which is a far better heat conductor to buy a stainless pot?

...because acidic wort will degrade the copper extremely fast especially if you use brew ph stabilisers

...because making a kettle out of copper might have more heat conduction but it also has more heat losses, because you can easily buy a cheap SS pot and stick an immersion element in it, which will provide you with a higher thermal transfer and efficiency than a burner through the copper ever will....

 

[real_beer]

I have been edging towards the 60/40 split myself but things like this don't come up very often so thanks for your comments so far.

Just remembered, a guy years ago had plans and photo's on the Internet on how to make a conical fermenter out of copper. Maybe a boiler and a fermenter could be an option, I think I downloaded the web page and kept it but not sure exactly where I put it, I could try and find it if you decide you like the idea :icon_cheers: .

 

[ausdb]

I voted 66/33.

But it really depends on your own typical brew day at home imo.

Whatever you go with, a large kettle for big brew days will come in handy.

Actually lately due to a back injury I have been mainly doing 20-30L brews using just a 40L urn and a 50L esky. This thing is overkill but is a good project for club brewdays or having mates round who want to make AG wort.

...because acidic wort will degrade the copper extremely fast especially if you use brew ph stabilisers

...because making a kettle out of copper might have more heat conduction but it also has more heat losses, because you can easily buy a cheap SS pot and stick an immersion element in it, which will provide you with a higher thermal transfer and efficiency than a burner through the copper ever will....

Sorry if this sounds sarcarstic but please dont tell me that brewers for the last few hundred years have had it all wrong? "copper" finings didn't get their name from being thrown in the copper? kettle for nothing. I also don't know of anyone managing to dissolve a copper immerison chiller or CFC due to using brew stabilisers, can you point me to some info on this?
An immersion element will provide better heat transfer but also ties you to a mains power supply and means you will also need a way of controlling power to the element/s once you have got it to the boil to control your evaporation rate. You would also need significantly more than 2400W to get it up and running I would hazard a rough guess on using 4800W for 150L or even more based on my experience with a 40L urn with a 3000W element which still takes a fair while to get to the boil with 35L in it. Also you cant play wort tricks like kettle caramelisation with an electric kettle very well.
Gas fired means this project is portable and can be used anywhere.

Just remembered, a guy years ago had plans and photo's on the Internet on how to make a conical fermenter out of copper. Maybe a boiler and a fermenter could be an option, I think I downloaded the web page and kept it but not sure exactly where I put it, I could try and find it if you decide you like the idea :icon_cheers: .

I have seen that site but there is plenty of info that making wort and boiling in a copper vessel = good but fermenting wort in a copper vessel = bad

 

[seravitae]

not to sound sarcastic but why are you asking questions if you already know the answers..

plus you never specified limitations such as that you planned to use gas, so who am I to know.

regardless, good luck!

 

[katzke]

not to sound sarcastic but why are you asking questions if you already know the answers..

plus you never specified limitations such as that you planned to use gas, so who am I to know.

regardless, good luck!

Post number 8 mentions the burner.

The original post just asked where to cut it. Never asked about if copper was good or not. I got that they are committed to the project and just wanted advice as to what size of boiler would be best.

 

[katzke]

OK I have a thought for you. Some place in the back of my mind I recall reading a reference on boil kettle geometry, or maybe on fermenter geometry. I am sure that it was a reference of ideal diameter to height. Most brew systems over here are based on barrel kegs. I would have to get to one and measure it for the ratio. I use a 50-liter keg and they are shorter then the standard barrel kegs.

This may give you an idea of where to cut your tank.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Sera is right about the copper and that is why breweries don't use copper anymore - it doesn't count when its just a skin on a stainless kettle.

Copper doesn't hold up to the rigors of brewing as well, you need to be careful about the cleaners you plan to use and excessive copper is bad for yeast health ( a little is needed, but way less than you will get from your kettle) Info on making wort in copper kettles = good, is basically wrong. It may not be completely unworkable (obviously isn't) but of the practicable metals you could choose.. its probably the least suitable.

Oh - at the end of the day it would still work with few problems... but I too think you would be better off selling the copper and buying commercial pots in stainless or aluminium... depending of course on what price you could get.

Still - that wouldn't be as much fun, and that might be half the point anyway.

 

[seravitae]

copper is antibacterial to e.coli and other bacteria, some studies have shown SS has little effect on bacteria whereas copper and brass both possess antibacterial effects, one of the reasons that doorknobs were traditionally made of brass. may be useful to have copper in the kettle if you chill in the kettle to keep stuff sterilized/pasturized.

With that huge amount of copper I think it would be fun to beat it out into a nicetraditional alembic distiller (for art purposes, not functional). But as stated, this is about fun, and different people have different ideas of what fun is. Either way that huge mound of copper is going to make for a nice project (or a good trade for project gear).

 

[ausdb]

Sera is right about the copper and that is why breweries don't use copper anymore - it doesn't count when its just a skin on a stainless kettle.

Copper doesn't hold up to the rigors of brewing as well, you need to be careful about the cleaners you plan to use and excessive copper is bad for yeast health ( a little is needed, but way less than you will get from your kettle) Info on making wort in copper kettles = good, is basically wrong. It may not be completely unworkable (obviously isn't) but of the practicable metals you could choose.. its probably the least suitable.

Oh - at the end of the day it would still work with few problems... but I too think you would be better off selling the copper and buying commercial pots in stainless or aluminium... depending of course on what price you could get.

Still - that wouldn't be as much fun, and that might be half the point anyway.

copper is antibacterial to e.coli and other bacteria, some studies have shown SS has little effect on bacteria whereas copper and brass both possess antibacterial effects, one of the reasons that doorknobs were traditionally made of brass. may be useful to have copper in the kettle if you chill in the kettle to keep stuff sterilized/pasturized.

With that huge amount of copper I think it would be fun to beat it out into a nicetraditional alembic distiller (for art purposes, not functional). But as stated, this is about fun, and different people have different ideas of what fun is. Either way that huge mound of copper is going to make for a nice project (or a good trade for project gear).

Cheers for the comments guys but can you please point me to some hard data about copper being bad?
I did some searching last night and a few things that came up on google books in brewing texts did not say this was the case, I even found a few references about all S/S breweries putting some copper back into the wort production process Miller in the USA still use copper kettles with stainless domes. I know that copper does not fit so well with cleaners used in modern process cleaning systems but this is only a home brew setup not a comercial brewery and if I have to clean it with a pressure cleaner so be it.
Also if copper is so bad why do distilleries still build their stills out of it?

 

[Airgead]

Folks

I don't know much about copper brewing kettles but I do know that copper cooking pots are always coated on the inside (tinned they call it although I'm not sure they actually use tin any more). This stops the copper being attached by acidic foods. the only exception is copper bowls for beating eggs.

I wonder whether traditional copper brewing kettles are also tinned or whether they were just raw copper?

Cheers
Dave