Diastatic Grunt Of Malted Wheat

[Nick JD]

I'm thinking about doing a wheat/rice combo and was wondering if the diatose in wheat is as powerful as that in barley?

I've got away with (and very much enjoyed) 30% rice in the grain bill ... can I do the same with malted wheat?

If it's not, how might I get away with it? Does anyone sell alpha amylase in a jar?

 

[Kleiny]

Malted wheat has enough DP to convert itself but probably not a heap of adjunct like rice.

You will need to add some Pils or pale to up the enzymes to help convert the rice

Kleiny

Edit: 30% rice in what grain bill? did it include any other malts?

 

[Kleiny]

I found this on the brewing network forum, might help work out your mash:

You can figure total mash DP in a similar general way that you add up gravity points in your grist too:

Add up the Lintner contribution of each individual malt in terms of their weights, then divide by the total weight.
Sum of (X lbs of malt * Y Degrees Lintner for that malt) / (total lbs of malt)

example: Here's a sample grain bill for a Classic American Pilsner:

8 lbs Pilsner malt at 140 Lintner
3 lbs Corn Grits at 0 Lintner
1 lb Light Munich at 50 Lintner

(8 x 140) + (3 x 0) + (1 x 50) = 1170 Lbs Lintner
Divide that by (8+3+1) = 11 lbs

1170/11 = 106.36 Lintner

 

[Screwtop]

No

Malted wheat has enough DP to convert itself but probably not a heap of adjunct like rice.

You will need to add some Pils or pale to up the enzymes to help convert the rice

Kleiny

Edit: 30% rice in what grain bill? did it include any other malts?

Wouldn't he be cooking the rice prior to adding it to the mash - (cereal mash) ?

Screwy

 

[Nick JD]

Edit: 30% rice in what grain bill? did it include any other malts?

Thanks, Kleiny.

Yes, plain ol' BB Ale with 30% rice seemed to scratch through, just. Knocked a bit off the effiency, but only a little. I'd say 25% would be about right.

Looks like I'll have to add some high DP barley, huh. Bummer - I was quite looking forward to a rice wheat.

How do I find the Lintner for a specific grain?

 

[Nick JD]

Wouldn't he be cooking the rice prior to adding it to the mash - (cereal mash) ?

Screwy

Yes. Cooked to a "congee" consistency.

 

[Nick JD]

Found this:

...as a rule of thumb, the total grain bill of a mash should have a diastatic power of at least 40 L (Lintner) in order to guarantee efficient conversion of all the starches in the mash to sugars.

Now all I have to do is find a list of L for common grains.

 

[Bribie G]

Good info, Nick.
So far I have been going 'on trust' with malts such as BB Galaxy to convert rice and maize, but recently I have read on the Bairds UK site that with many of their malts you should only use about 10 percent grain adjuncts otherwise you could end up affecting yeast health and possible production of unwanted stuff like diacetyl. It's interesting that in the two UK bitters where I have used a fair whack of maize I have had noticeable diacetyl. Personally I love diacetyl in moderation, yummy butterscotchy, but wouldn't want it in a lager or a light ale.
I wonder if the maltsters such as BB or JW would reveal the diastatic power of their various malts? Might see if they would respond to an email :icon_cheers:

 

[Nick JD]

Good info, Nick.
So far I have been going 'on trust' with malts such as BB Galaxy to convert rice and maize, but recently I have read on the Bairds UK site that with many of their malts you should only use about 10 percent grain adjuncts otherwise you could end up affecting yeast health and possible production of unwanted stuff like diacetyl. It's interesting that in the two UK bitters where I have used a fair whack of maize I have had noticeable diacetyl. Personally I love diacetyl in moderation, yummy butterscotchy, but wouldn't want it in a lager or a light ale.
I wonder if the maltsters such as BB or JW would reveal the diastatic power of their various malts? Might see if they would respond to an email :icon_cheers:

Thanks to Kleiny too! I only just heard of this Lintner chap. But a table of the DP of all the malts would certainly ease the worried minds of those considering large whacks of 0 DP adjuncts.

L of 40 to fully convert means that something like 10% of a 150+ L malt would sort the whole mash out without really affecting taste in a grainy way.

Still looking for a table of all the malts, but I'm not holding my breath. That email sounds like the idea.

Or I wonder if some of the site sponsors have this info?

 

[bigfridge]

I wonder if the maltsters such as BB or JW would reveal the diastatic power of their various malts? Might see if they would respond to an email :icon_cheers:

You should get a spec sheet with every purchase of grain - if your supplier won't give you the specs for the grain that you buy, change suppliers !

Off the hop of my head, Diastatic Power is a function of the malting process - degree of modification, how wet the grain is when it is kilned and the kilning temperature and time. This means that Pils Malts have the highest DP due to relatively low kilning temperature, and darker grains such as Vienna/Munich/Brown have the lowest due to kilning to at higher temperature with a higher water content (for melanoidin/colour development). Ale malts are in between as they are kilned higher than Pilsner but with a low moisture content.

Wheat malts tend to have a DP similar to Pils or Ale malts, but tend to be a bit higher as they do not have any husk, so for a given weight there is less 'non-converting' material present.

HTH,
Dave

 

[Nick JD]

We could always don our white coats and...

A malt has a diastatic power of 100 L if 0.1cc of a clear 5% infusion of the malt, acting on 100cc of a 2% starch solution at 20C for one hour, produces sufficient reducing sugars to reduce completely 5cc of Fehling's solution.

Turns out Fehling's solution is what they use to detect glucose in a diabetic's wee...

 

[Nick JD]

You should get a spec sheet with every purchase of grain - if your supplier won't give you the specs for the grain that you buy, change suppliers !

Off the hop of my head, Diastatic Power is a function of the malting process - degree of modification, how wet the grain is when it is kilned and the kilning temperature and time. This means that Pils Malts have the highest DP due to relatively low kilning temperature, and darker grains such as Vienna/Munich/Brown have the lowest due to kilning to at higher temperature with a higher water content (for melanoidin/colour development). Ale malts are in between as they are kilned higher than Pilsner but with a low moisture content.

Wheat malts tend to have a DP similar to Pils or Ale malts, but tend to be a bit higher as they do not have any husk, so for a given weight there is less 'non-converting' material present.

HTH,
Dave

Ahhh, so the kilning denatures the enzymes released by the malting procedure? Makes sense I s'pose if you think what 75C does to a mash.

I wonder, do some types of barley actually produce more enzymes while growing?

 

[bigfridge]

Ahhh, so the kilning denatures the enzymes released by the malting procedure? Makes sense I s'pose if you think what 75C does to a mash.

I wonder, do some types of barley actually produce more enzymes while growing?

The enzymes are produced by malting - this is why unmalted grains have no DP. The types of enzymes do vary with the barley variety and growing conditions etc, and are denatured (ie 'killed') by heat, but this varies with moisture content.

In a mash the moisture content is very high (ie there is more water than needed), so they are denatured at the 75 that you mention. As the moisture content drops, so the amount of heat that the enzymes can sustain without denaturing rises which is why the malt can be kilned at more than 100 deg C without denaturing.

Dave

 

[manticle]

Don't know how useful this page might be to you:

http://brewingtechniques.com/bmg/noonan.html

I also found this - you have to register but it has downloadable software including a calculator for diastatic power of grains.

http://www.uberbeergeek.com/bih/hbrcpweb.htm

Don't know if they're any help. My understanding is that malts diastacity will vary from maltser to maltster which may explain why finding a table is so difficult.

 

[Nick JD]

Thanks fellas.

Still begs the question ... why can't we just buy diatase in a jar?

 

[manticle]

By the way - Palmer suggests malted wheat has the same distatic power as malted barley. http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-1.html
Not stating that as a fact - just an interesting reference point.

Could you try a small batch of your intended recipe and see how it goes?

 

[Kleiny]

Thanks fellas.

Still begs the question ... why can't we just buy diatase in a jar?

You can by enzyme solution but only in bulky lots too much for the homebrewer

Some large brewery's use it.

The DP will vary by batch and malt type and thats why you should try and get a copy of the malt analysis if you want to figure out exact calc's

Ask the retailer you bought the malt through, if Ross stocks it at craftbrewer or GG they should have a copy of the analysis(be able to get one)

Kleiny

 

[Nick JD]

Could you try a small batch of your intended recipe and see how it goes?

Will do, mate.

9L Batch
1.8kg BB Wheat Malt
0.9kg Thai Long Grain Rice (boiled)
7g Pacific Jade for 45min
US05

I'm not using a wheat specific yeast because I don't want the esters, but want the wheatie/ricey flavour to dominate with the balance between sweet and bitter leaning the sweet way.

 

[bigfridge]

Thanks fellas.

Still begs the question ... why can't we just buy diatase in a jar?

Well you can - but not by the name (or spelling :icon_cheers: ) that you use.

'Diastase' is the collective name given for all the malt enzymes that are involved in the breakdown in starch - which are mainly alpha and beta amylase enzymes. You can easily buy these in small packs from all HB stores as they are what is in the dry enzyme packs. These are usually made from various species of fungus which is usually a good reason for not including them in my beer.

But you can use them if you want to - but you will end up with VB. It is 'mashed' with such industrial enzymes but you will need to boil without hops to give the characteristic flavour.

While you are free to turn your back on a few centuries of brewing experience, why not learn from their experience of what works and what doesn't. You don't need to concern yourself with DP if you use the correct ingredients.

You will get flavoursome ales by using Marris Otter, but don't expect it to convert much starchy adjunct as the flavour is not part of the style and hence the malt does not need the DP. This is why you find rice and corn in pale pilsners where the base malt has been prepared with sufficient DP to convert the 30% adjunct load.

If you have to add artificial enzymes then you are doing something horribly wrong.

Dave

 

[Nick JD]

While you are free to turn your back on a few centuries of brewing experience...

Free as a bird, Dave. I want to taste a rice wheat beer. If the Gods of Beer don't like that then let them strike me down with furious vengance and hops. :icon_cheers: