Your Favourite Belgian Brew

[brewwizard]

Hi Brewizard
I'm aware that they may be the case in some instances, but I've successfully cultured yeasts out of a number of belgian beers, including Chimay, Orval, Hoegarden Wit, Hoegarden Grand Cru and most recently Grottenbier and to date all of the beers I've made with them have very similar flavour profiles to the original beer and were not at all lager like. And they didn't just taste like lagers fermented at the wrong temperature.

I'd certainly be interested to hear the views of others who have tried reculturing yeasts from bottle conditioned beers.

Regards
Stephen.

Well done. I stand corrected. I saw a list years ago. Obviously things change.
Even Chimay is brewed in a factory now ??? I visited the monestary and brewery
in 1990. Went back in 2004. No brewery at monestary, moved into Chimay town
and a factory. I felt cheated. Cheers
brewwizard :chug:

 

[sjc]

Hi Brewwizard
that's an interesting point you make about Chimay and I read somewhere about similar happenings the Orval brewery. In 2003 I cultured the yeast from an Orval and made up a clone beer. It had similar although not identical features to the original. This year I again cultured the yeast from an Orval, but when I tasted the fermented wort in the starter I thought it tasted very neutral - a lager yeast for bottle conditioning? So I recultured the yeast in my earlier clone (yes I still have some left) and brewed up a clone beer. I initially pitched the newer yeast from the bottle I cultured this year and fermented it for one week. I then added the culture from my earlier clone and allowed fermentation to finish.
The resulting beer seems much closer to the original than my first attempt, which perhaps lends weight to the theory that they may have changed the yeast/culture they add at bottling. Anyway, with a sample of both cultures, I know seem to have the means to produce a reliable clone of this one.

regards
Stephen.

 

[GothGargoyle]

Add my vote for the Gouden Carolus. Simply one of the nicest beers (Belgian or otherwise) I have ever had!

Another one I quite enjoyed in the Belgian Beer Cafe is "The Bolleke" by De Koninck.

 

[Curry]

Guys,

Thanks for more feeback, listed updated again.

Goth: My understanding is that a Bolleke is actually a glass (I could be wrong) and that De Koninck actually has 9 beers. I'm assuming that Belgian Beer Cafe serves the one under the name of De Koninck - anyone care to comment on this?

Cheers

Curry

 

[PMyers]

Obviously things change.
Even Chimay is brewed in a factory now ???

If people have been culturing yeast from Chimay bottles recently, then things have DEFINATELY changed. I remember reading an article several years ago (translated from Belgian by an online translator) that stated implicitly that Chimay is centrifuged after fermentation to remove suspended particulate, then reinnoculated with a neutral yeast for bottle conditioning.

Didn't know about Chimay being brewed outside of the monastery, though.

Cheers,
Pete
:chug:

 

[Malnourished]

Didn't know about Chimay being brewed outside of the monastery, though.

It's still brewed at the monastery, but it's packaged at the factory in town. I can't recall where fermentation takes place off the top of my head, though I think it's in the monastery. I'd be very surprised if they used a different culture for bottle-conditioning too, but I guess strangers things have happened.

And lambic isn't that hard to find. You can definitely get draught lambic in Brussels at Cantillon (err... Cantillon) and Warm Water (Girardin.) The bottled Cantillon lambic (aka Bruocsella 1900 Grand Cru) should be relatively easy to find in specialist beer places. If you can find De Cam's bottled Oude Lambiek then you should start thinking about trading away that first born.

 

[PMyers]

And lambic isn't that hard to find.

I agree totally. Lambic in Belgium is very common. It is found on tap in many Brussels cafes. What isn't easy to find are the viuex lambics. In fact one of them is only served to VIP guests of the Lambic Museum, apparently. They are very expensive, and you certainly won't find many served outside of the actual breweries.

Cheers,
Pete
:chug:

 

[kook]

I agree totally. Lambic in Belgium is very common. It is found on tap in many Brussels cafes. What isn't easy to find are the viuex lambics. In fact one of them is only served to VIP guests of the Lambic Museum, apparently. They are very expensive, and you certainly won't find many served outside of the actual breweries.

Cheers,
Pete
:chug:

Viuex is another word for Old. It's simply Old, unblended lambic. This isn't that uncommon, and I've certainly never paid more for it than Jonge lambic. I've tried it from Girardin, De Cam, Boon and Drie Fontaine. You simply have to hunt a little (or visit festivals). Cantillon doesn't officially serve it, however i'm sure Jean Pierre would serve it to friends if asked.

FYI, I had the Boon at Zythos Beer Festival, the De Cam is bottled. I tried the Drie Fontaine and Girardin at the Weekend of Spontanious Fermentation (with Malnourished).

 

[Malnourished]

What isn't easy to find are the viuex lambics. In fact one of them is only served to VIP guests of the Lambic Museum, apparently. They are very expensive, and you certainly won't find many served outside of the actual breweries.

I'm 99.9% certain we are talking about the same thing.

In Belgium, the word "lambic" (or lambik/lambiek) means the stuff straight from the barrel. Of course this can be vieux/oude or jeune/jong, but in my experience the young stuff is the one that's hard to find. This is a happy coincidence though, the old stuff is far superior, IMO. We Anglophones confuse the situation by referring to the entire family of spontaneously-fermented beers as lambics. "Lambics" in form of Belle-Vue Kriek and the like are literally available everywhere in Belgium, as you say. "Lambic" in the Belgian sense (and what you are talking about) is also available in Brussels at (at least) the two places I mentioned above for anyone who walks in off the street, and they are generally far cheaper than gueuze because there's no blending and refermentation time required.

I'm assuming by "Lambic Museum" you mean Cantillon. You can buy draught lambic there (usually about 18 months old, at least it was when I was there) and you can buy the Grand Cru for 5 or 6 (I forget which) a 750mL bottle. I know they've experimented with some unique one-off lambics (in cognac barrels or dry-hopped with Cascades for instance!) which might be reserved for VIPs, but there are definitely two that anyone can walk in off the street and buy.

In the Payottenland there are quite a number of places selling draught lambic, but a few of the more industrial producers don't generally release theirs before blending. If you're interested in other places which sell draught vieux lambic, check out LambikLand by Tim Webb, Joris Pattyn and Podge... or get to the Weekend der Spontane Gisting in Buggenhout one day :beerbang:

 

[Malnourished]

Cantillon doesn't officially serve it, however i'm sure Jean Pierre would serve it to friends if asked.

Damn you beat me to it!

Cantillon served lambic "officially" whenever I was there... And it was available at kook's favourite restaurant, In 't Spinnekopke.

 

[kook]

Damn you beat me to it!

Cantillon served lambic "officially" whenever I was there... And it was available at kook's favourite restaurant, In 't Spinnekopke.

They serve the Jonge (and Faro) there I've never had them serve me Oude.


edit - Strange, I've got my tasting notes as "Cantillon Jonge Lambic", yet I clearly state that its 2 years old. Which to me, is Oude lambic! I guess I take back what I said above

 

[Malnourished]

edit - Strange, I've got my tasting notes as "Cantillon Jonge Lambic", yet I clearly state that its 2 years old. Which to me, is Oude lambic! I guess I take back what I said above

It makes sense if you're tasting individual barrels, but as a consumer the jonge/oude differentiation never really made much sense to me. I only ever saw Girardin specifically advertised as such. All the others were just "lambic/k." I guess Cantillon's is "jonge" (why Flemish?) to differentiate it from the Grand Cru.

 

[mikem108]

Hi MikeM
I see you list Grottenbier as one of your favourite belgian beers. I recently tried this one and also decided to try cultivating the yeast. I had almost given up on it and then one morning I see the telltale signs that there is life down there!

As one of your favourites, do you have any ideas as to its probable composition, as I may as well put the yeast to use now.
Cheers
Stephen.

According to MJ :
Amber Vienna and a marginally smaller proportion of Cara-Munich
Original Gravity: 16 Plato (1064)
spices from a tropical country in addition to hops to create that very distinctive and rather hard-to-analyze character."

Difficult to pin down, i'm ordering more bottles ...for research!

 

[sjc]

Hi Mike
thanks for the analysis. Where do you get your Grottenbier supplies? In Queensland I've only ever seen it in a bottle shop in Toowoomba. Other Qld AHBers who are belgian beer fans would know the bottle shop I'm referring to.
Cheers
Stephen.

 

[GothGargoyle]

My understanding is that a Bolleke is actually a glass (I could be wrong) and that De Koninck actually has 9 beers. I'm assuming that Belgian Beer Cafe serves the one under the name of De Koninck - anyone care to comment on this?

Yes you are correct, a Belgian colleague of mine pointed out this on my last visit to the Belgian Beer Cafe but I was only half listening He was saying it couldn't be a "real Bolleke" because it came in a bottle.

I did a bit of research and a "bolleke" is apparently what you ask for in Antwerp cafes which have De Koninck Ale as their house beer. So if you aren't going to Antwerp on your trip, don't worry about it.

I'd say the one in the Belgian Beer Cafe is what De Koninck bottle for export, naming it "The Bolleke" to capitalize on their reputation as the "everyday beer in Antwerp".

 

[PMyers]

I'm 99.9% certain we are talking about the same thing.

...

You can buy draught lambic there (usually about 18 months old, at least it was when I was there)

Now I am not so sure we are talking about the same thing (although I must say my knowledge on this hasn't been updated for several years).

The vieux that I know of is at least three years old, and anywhere up to five years in the cask. Unless this is actually called something else (which would account for the confusion).

Cheers,
Pete
:chug:

 

[Malnourished]

The vieux that I know of is at least three years old, and anywhere up to five years in the cask. Unless this is actually called something else (which would account for the confusion).

Well, like I said, Cantillon's bottled lambic is three years old. Girardin's oude lambik is also generally three years old. De Cam's bottled oude lambiek was five years old when it was bottled.

I'm curious as to where you had this vieux lambic though. And who brewed it? I'm guessing that because you refer to it as "vieux" it's either Cantillon or Belle-Vue - or was it an older producer that is no longer?

 

[mikem108]

Hi Mike
thanks for the analysis. Where do you get your Grottenbier supplies? In Queensland I've only ever seen it in a bottle shop in Toowoomba. Other Qld AHBers who are belgian beer fans would know the bottle shop I'm referring to.
Cheers
Stephen.

I get it delivered by megabeer.com.
I had another bottle on the w/e it was like a cross between Leffe Brun and Chmay Red. I think there is a fair proportion of caramel syrup in there and not much hops.

 

[brendanos]

Gueze (Cantillon), Oud Bruin (Liefmans), and Quadruple (St Bernardus). Maybe not the best of each style that I will ever taste, but for now they're at the top.

Reculturing some yeast from a bottle of St Bernardus Abt 12 for a similar brew, but found out they may bottle with a different strain, so it might not be the Westvleteren strain that I was chasing.

 

[Vlad the Pale Aler]

Brendanos - save yourself a lot of farting around and buy it, White Labs 530, Wyeast 1762