Yeasts in lagers

[Klosey]

Has anyone had experience in using yeasts in lagers that can be fermented at ale temperatures. I ferment my lagers at 12c (S189) and pitch double the yeast as I would for an ale. I ferment 46 litres at a time and double the ingredients recommended for extract kits (23 litres). I noticed there is a Californian Lager kit available that uses mangrove jack m54 yeast that can be brewed at ale temperatures 18c.So the question is because this is a lager do I double the yeast as I do normally for lagers or just use the yeast supplied with the kit. When I do my lagers I don’t use the yeast supplied with the kit and buy Fermentis S189 and use 4x 11.5 packets of yeast for the 46litre wort.

 

[kadmium]

Has anyone had experience in using yeasts in lagers that can be fermented at ale temperatures. I ferment my lagers at 12c (S189) and pitch double the yeast as I would for an ale. I ferment 46 litres at a time and double the ingredients recommended for extract kits (23 litres). I noticed there is a Californian Lager kit available that uses mangrove jack m54 yeast that can be brewed at ale temperatures 18c.So the question is because this is a lager do I double the yeast as I do normally for lagers or just use the yeast supplied with the kit. When I do my lagers I don’t use the yeast supplied with the kit and buy Fermentis S189 and use 4x 11.5 packets of yeast for the 46litre wort.

If you intend on fermenting with lager yeast at ale temps you really have 2 options.

Pressure ferment, to keep fusel and esters and VDKs low. Requires a new pressure fermenter and associated bits and bobs.

Use W34-70 which is notorious for fermenting clean at warmer temps. I'd pitch 3 packets and ferment it at 21c with the W34-70.

It may, and I say may, not be 100% the same as a traditional lager ferment but in a beerxperiment (take their experiments with a fair pinch of salt) they couldn't reliably tell.

But, anecdotally W34-70 produces good warm lagers.

 

[BrewLizard]

Brulosophy: Short and Shoddy is your friend.

 

[kadmium]

Brulosophy: Short and Shoddy is your friend.

Yeah I am not really a fan of their 'experiments' and their methods, but they do provide some anecdotal evidence and they can be taken into consideration. In the instance of the warm ferment, they were done with no pressure, however they ramped the "lager" once it hit 50% attenuation which really doesn't give it the chance to brew as a true lager should. They also waited to pitch the warm ferment until the other had chilled down, which I feel they should have pitched the warm pitch as soon as it was ready, as that's an advantage of the warm pitch / warm ferment method. But to each their own.

I do believe though that Fermentis stated W34-70 can be used warmer, as published on their website on October last year showing they believe it's pitching rate + low temps which imparts off flavours in W34 and not fermentation temp.

https://fermentis.com/en/rediscover-saflager-w-34-70/
"The brewer only needs to be aware of the risk of having off-notes (like diacetyl or buttery flavor) at low pitching rates and a low fermentation temperature at the same time."

"Some important conclusions must be considered when using SafLager W-34/70: the lower the fermentation temperature or the higher the density, the longer the fermentation time will be. Nevertheless, by increasing the fermentation temperature, you can reduce the fermentation time – without affecting the neutral beer flavor!"