Wort Lost To Trub And Chiller

[Effect]

I recently brewed a batch of beer and was quite upset to find that I had only gotten 15 litres instead of the planned 20.

I couldn't understand how such a difference had occured since I had hit all my targets. Temp wise, volume wise (before chilling) and Gravity wise.

I made an irish red ale and wanted to try out a method of boiling a few litres of the first runnings to get some to caramalise. So I guess I would have lost a litre due to that at least. So 19 litres would be expected.

I boiled maybe a bit too hard - as I have found that my beers are a bit on the murky side and a reason could have been that I wasn't boiling hard enough (wanting to conserve the gas). So maybe an extra litre there as well - so only 18 litres expected.

I filled up my keggle today a litre at a time so I could mark on my coopers spoon the volume of the water.

I started to pour it out (well let it go through the tap) - walked away only to come back to find that there was still a far bit of water left in the kettle. I put the coopers spoon in - 3 LITRES were left in the kettle. I.e. 15 litres from the initial batch that was planned to be 20. No wonder I was stumped to find that I had hit all my temps, gravity and volumes right but just didn't seem to get the correct volume OUT of the kettle.

I am using a 're-conditioned' 50 litre keg, with a beerbelly hop screen and pick up tube. Is there any recommendations on how I could limit the amount left in the kettle? Do you guys need to see a pic to help? I was thinking of getting a hammer and smashing the base of it so it would become convex (or concave whichever way you are looking) so that the wort can't 'pool' underneath the pickup tube.

Thanks for any advice

Phil

 

[hoohaaman]

You could adjust your volume in to take into account the 3lt deadspace.Or you could adjust hardware to gain the loss.

Depending on circumstance,adding extra water maybe easier.Then drain off 3lt left over into a container let separate from trub and use for starters.

 

[katzke]

Well you have found you can not make a liter of beer from a liter of wort.

If you boil you lose. If you add hops they suck up wort. If you are using grain you have hot break. If you chill you have cold break. If you use yeast you have yeast sludge that holds some wort. Not to mention the splashing and wort that sticks to kettles and hoses.

As to how to get as much out of the kettle as possible. Not familiar with what you are using but most people have a copper tube that is bent down and long enough to get to the bottom of the keg. Then you only leave a few centimeters in the bowl shaped kettle bottom.

Just brewed yesterday and I measured a wort loss of about 4 liters. I siphon and that was what I scooped out and after straining the hops.

At least what boils out leaves the sugars behind. The other losses are just losses. Thirsty Boy has done a good explanation on losses a few times to explain how to figure final volumes. Do a google search with his name and the subject and you may find one of them.

 

[Goofinder]

I tip my kettle toward the hopscreen/pickup tube to get a bit more out. Basically all that is left is hop sludge which I allow about 2-3L for.

 

[fraser_john]

I use Pro-mash and there is a place to enter kettle deadspace, I lose about 2 litres due to this deadspace, all you do is add extra sparge water or top the kettle up after sparge with the 2 litres lost and your recipe is back on track!

Promash and probably beersmith calculate all the water requirements out for you.

 

[Screwtop]

Common practice is: If you want 20L in the fermenter add your evaporation amount, kettle losses plus any other. I add 5L for kettle and chiller for a total 48L batch, gives me 21 odd litres each in two fermenters. Don't add this amount after recipe formulation, be sure to start with this volume, make it the default in your equipment, then all of your malt and hop amounts will be correct for final volume. When I used a 50L keggle the evaporation rate for a hard boil was about 6L in a 90 min boil.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[Jakechan]

Promash and probably beersmith calculate all the water requirements out for you.

Yes for Beersmith. It adjusts the sparge volume, and hence the amount to kettle is higher as well.

 

[Darren]

Philip,

Make sure the seal between the keggle and your pick-up tube is air-tight. Then the boiler should almost completely drain by gravity.

It can help to have a greater distance between the kettle tap and your fermenter, as the gravity flow will be stronger.

cheers

Darren

 

[mickoz]

Hi Philip,

You need a bit of a fall on your hoses and make sure they fill (raise them a little at the start to get rid of bubbles), this way you will get a good syphon effect and be able to drain wort all the way to the bottom of your kettle.

Mick

 

[KHB]

I tip my kettle toward the hopscreen/pickup tube to get a bit more out. Basically all that is left is hop sludge which I allow about 2-3L for.

I do the same and allow for the hop sludge in beersmith

KHB

 

[drsmurto]

I tip my kettle toward the hopscreen/pickup tube to get a bit more out. Basically all that is left is hop sludge which I allow about 2-3L for.

I do the same and allow for the hop sludge in beersmith

KHB

Me too. I'm a tipper! I reckon i get about 1L left in the kettle so i aim for 21L in the recipe so i get 20L into the fermenter which is what i want.

Phil - remember the brick i shoved under the kettle as it was almost finished draining? That gets me another 2L of wort would otherwise stay in the kettle.

The beerbelly hopscreen has the pickup 3 or so cm from the bottom of the keg (which arent flat so the pickup sits higher).

 

[Effect]

Philip,

Make sure the seal between the keggle and your pick-up tube is air-tight. Then the boiler should almost completely drain by gravity.

It can help to have a greater distance between the kettle tap and your fermenter, as the gravity flow will be stronger.

cheers

Darren

It is an air-tight seal - but thinking now, only started to tip the keggle only after it stopped draining (i.e. no gravity feeding possible). So I probably could have gotten an extra litre or 2 out of it.

I think I will just start making 25 litre batches, and use the whatever is left over in the kettle as starters etc...

Thanks for all the advice.

But, still no one commented on turning the base to be convex - so all the wort HAS to run down the to the side...

 

[Darren]

Philip,

Hop screens in a boiler are a waste of time. A piece of 12mm copper tube suffices and drains every last drop from your boiler.

cheers

Darren

 

[Darren]

But, still no one commented on turning the base to be convex - so all the wort HAS to run down the to the side...

Phillip,

How will that work with a screen? Wouldn't you lose more wort? Would be ok with a pick-up tube so long as it was bent to the side of the kettle. I suspect that a convex bottom will work better though by pooling all the wort in the centre of the kettle.

cheers

Darren

 

[Jakechan]

Philip,

Hop screens in a boiler are a waste of time. A piece of 12mm copper tube suffices and drains every last drop from your boiler.

cheers

Darren

Interesting, I've just posted a thread about this topic.

Do you have a pic of your copper pick up tube in kettle?

Cheers,
Jake

 

[BOG]

Phillip,

I raised the same question on the weekend. I fitted a BB hop screen to the kettle on Sunday and after some water tests to confirm tap fittings are sealed etc found that I had a 2.7Litre loss to the kettle.

As you stated it's due to the position on the hopscreen being slightly higher than the bottom (at the side) and that the bowl shape of the kettle bottom add more dead space.

There has been discussion here about a Beersmith bug that does not calculate the loss to kettle and trub correctly. (Butters was onto that)
I'm surprised by a previous comment that it calculates it correctly.

I've added 3Litres to my receipes to account for kettle looses and also plate chiller , hose losses so I get out what I want.
The extra 3Litres is just wasted.


BOG

 

[Jakechan]

There is a Beersmith bug, I noticed it this morning.

BUT it can be circumvented.

1. Look at a given recipe using your chosen equipment, and note the Sparge Water allocated and also the Boil Size.

2. Open up your custom equipment file. Change the Loss to Boil Trub and Chiller.

3. Return to your recipe and you will see that NOTHING has changed!

The solution is you now have to rechoose your equipment, this will then update the recipe with the new amounts.
This could be where confusion may exist for some.

Cheers,
Jake

 

[drsmurto]

BOG

Tip the kettle and you'll get most of that 2.7L out!

Cheers
DrSmurto

 

[RobW]

I use a false bottom as a hop screen and it does a fantastic job - as long as there are enough flowers or plugs and not all pellets.
For 100% pellet brews I use a pickup tube and when the runoff is no longer clear I catch it in a sanitised container, let the mud settle out and decant the clear wort into the fermenter later.
The false bottom method is much simpler though and the runoff is always really clear.

 

[cubbie]

Well you have found you can not make a liter of beer from a liter of wort.

If you boil you lose. If you add hops they suck up wort.

How much wort do hops suck up? I never account for this instead just calculate the total volume of my trub (which wby my thoughts would be greater than the total volume of wort remaining).