Why boil pils malt longer?

[BrosysBrews]

Hi

Was making a summer euro ale today, due to reading on here when using pils malt I made sure I did a 90min boil as the base malt was pilsner, just wondering why it needs a longer boil?

Thanks

 

[Mardoo]

My understanding is that pilsner malt has more DMS pre-cursors in it that require a longer boil to be done away with. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Blind Dog]

[SIZE=11pt]Mardoo is correct - AFAIK, the DMS precursor, S-methyl methionine (SMM), is produced during germination and converted to DMS by heating. The amount of SMM in malt is affected by a number of factors, one being the kilning time and temperature with lightly kilned malt such as Pilsner malt having a greater level of SMM than other malts. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]As DMS is volatile and can be boiled off, it is recommended to boil wort derived from pilsner malts for 90 minutes as opposed to 60 minutes.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]If this link works, its a fairly useful but easy introduction to malt specifications etc[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibd.org.uk%2Fcms%2Ffile%2F314&ei=gkuOVNenA-XSmgXC7oKQDw&usg=AFQjCNHLLKjCS-NCX-M2nU4fn9ydc6Uaew&bvm=bv.81828268,d.dGY[/SIZE]

 

[mckenry]

After countless brews I dont think its necessary. I used to use pils malt as my base exclusively (thinking being you can make all beers with this base, whereas ale malt doesnt make great lagers). Now I only ever boil for 60 mins*** I used to do the 90min thing (90min mash and 90 min boil) but fooked if it made any difference, other than more lost to evap, more time needed and more gas burnt. Youve done a 90 now. Do a 60 next time and compare.
This has been debated 1000s of times and no-one wins. Just do it yourself and see.
I think 90mins is a hangup from yesteryear when malt was undermodified. A lot of guys will say that you dont need it with todays highly modified malt (or something along those lines). If you really want a good long read, check this thread. 60 or 90?
I have nothing against the process, its just that all my beers are equally bad, regardless of boil time :lol:

*** Its really 75, just to confuse things. I spend the first 15mins striving for a good hot break and I skim the crud. I also pump some boiling wort thru my march pump. Once I'm done with all that, the 60 mins start.

 

[Lemon]

BB, historically Pilsner malt was less modified and this was the cause of greater incidence of DMS in the finished beer.
This is no longer the case, the lesser modification that is, but the desire to do a longer boil remains.
Experienced and trained Brewers I know and trust, do not believe that a longer boil is still required.

My two cents

Lemon

 

[manticle]

DMS is the main one but development of color and melanoidens (lacking/reduced in paler malts) is another
As mentioned - try both. I doubt you'll run into significant dms problems with a 60 min boil but one way to find out for yourself.
I do min 90 on everything but dms is not really the main motive.
By the way - yes smm is reduced in modified malts but a level still remains which needs to be converted and evaporated. Add to that everyone's threshold is different so find the level of boiling that gives the results you want. I'd start with the recommended and move down from that rather than the other way around.

 

[Black n Tan]

BB, historically Pilsner malt was less modified and this was the cause of greater incidence of DMS in the finished beer.
This is no longer the case, the lesser modification that is, but the desire to do a longer boil remains.

I am not sure this statement is correct. It is my understanding that SMM (DMS precursor) increases with the degree of modification and therefore modern modified malts, being more completely modified, will have more SMM. Pilsner malts have higher SMM because they are kilned at lower temps. I perform a 90 min boil when I use significant percentage of pilsner malt, one day I will be brave and try a 60 minute boil.

 

[slcmorro]

one day I will be brave and try a 60 minute boil.

I'm certainly not an experienced or great brewer by any stretch of the imagination, however I've done a few all-Pils beers with only a 60 min boil and I haven't picked anything up in the way of DMS, nor have my friends - both brewers and non-brewers alike.

 

[Black n Tan]

I'm certainly not an experienced or great brewer by any stretch of the imagination, however I've done a few all-Pils beers with only a 60 min boil and I haven't picked anything up in the way of DMS, nor have my friends - both brewers and non-brewers alike.

I hear you, but I am making good lagers at the moment, so do I really want to change things?

 

[mfeighan]

its a combination of the long boil and the rapid chill as far as i was aware to prevent dms. I have done 60min boils 100% pils malt with no dms issues however i do chill rapidly. Correct me if i am wrong but when no chilling it is a better idea to do a longer say 90 min boil, which is what i do when i occasionally no chill.

 

[slcmorro]

If it ain't broke, and you don't wanna mess with a good thing - don't fix it. For sure. Doesn't mean that you're necessarily doing something the best way though, even if it works. Just letting you know a 60 min boil for me has given good results is all. Always school for thought

 

[manticle]

I am not sure this statement is correct. It is my understanding that SMM (DMS precursor) increases with the degree of modification and therefore modern modified malts, being more completely modified, will have more SMM. Pilsner malts have higher SMM because they are kilned at lower temps. I perform a 90 min boil when I use significant percentage of pilsner malt, one day I will be brave and try a 60 minute boil.

To the best of my knowledge you are correct, in spite of what I wrote above.
I need to check but I have it in my mind that modern barley strains (2 row at least) have been bred to have lower levels of smm. Would be good to have wessmith step in (even if just to tell me I'm full of it).

 

[Black n Tan]

If it ain't broke, and you don't wanna mess with a good thing - don't fix it. For sure. Doesn't mean that you're necessarily doing something the best way though, even if it works. Just letting you know a 60 min boil for me has given good results is all. Always school for thought

I am sure a lot of things I do are not necessarily the best way. One day when I am short for time, I will give a 60 min boil ago for a pils. In the meantime I know that my pilsners will not suffer from a 90 min boil.

 

[peas_and_corn]

Well, aside from the greater amount of wort darkening.

 

[Black n Tan]

Well, aside from the greater amount of wort darkening.

Yes they will be a little darker, but well within style