Where did my beautiful taste go?

[Jack of all biers]

I think the concern Jack is that other factors will have a greater influence on diacetyl than pitching temp alone, namely pitching rate and yeast health. If we could pitch the equivalent of commercial rates (in the order of 60 smack packs of healthy yeast for some breweries) then diacetyl wouldn't be an issue.

Spot on Wiggman. Most home-brewers don't pitch enough healthy yeast and as such diacetyl is more likely so a diacetyl rest makes good sense.

I agree with you both. However if you go back to Elmondo's original post, he is pitching the yeast from a 10Litre starter and my comment about not needing to do a diacetyl rest was specifically for what he was doing, not a general comment for all. Please see my quote from Palmer above who schedules a 2 quart (just under 2 Litres) yeast starter. I think the amount of yeast Elmondo is producing with a three step oxygenated 10L starter is enough.

 

[TheWiggman]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and take advice from sources I consider reliable, and my anecdotal experience that lines up with it. Some of the specifics are from excellent discussion in this thread (TB and Wolfy), reinforced by comments here from MHB.

When stepping up yeast, there is a right and wrong way to go about it. I believe that most home brewers go the wrong way about it. Stepping up in small increments negatively affects yeast health. Having lots of unhealthy yeast is going to throw all good intentions with fermentation into the wind as we're trying to bandaid a problem rather than fix the source.

As per OP's process, going from 2l > 4l > 10l is a 2x then 2.5x increase in stepping, assuming that all yeast slurry is used for the next step. This goes against recommended guidelines from the experts. Yes you will have a lot of yeast slurry, but you will also have yeast which has been trained to adjust itself to smaller wort:yeast ratios. This is where my knowledge ends and I'm not going to pretend to know what I'm on about.

This may be getting off-topic but we are talking about lager brewing. If there's one thing I've learned when using liquid yeast in a lager the management of the yeast and fermentation is critical to a good lager. Quite frankly I was blown away at the difference in the final product of my beers simply by managing my starter stepping, using O2 and yeast nutrient. On the fermentation side I haven't done much differently and still employ the diacetyl rest, but do it as a matter of course.

 

[GalBrew]

I think employing a d-rest is just good practice in general. You might be pitching sufficiently, but unless you are testing for it, have no clue to overall yeast vitality. It's not like ramping up for a day or two is that hard??

Home brewing is never under 'ideal' conditions.

 

[elmondo]

Good discussions guys.
I tend to reuse my yeast over several generations. I repitch the slurry from previous batches to my next batch. On the weekend I pitched my favourite Bavarian from Wyeast into wort at 6 degrees. I increased the temp of the wort to 8 degrees overnight and within 24 hours of pitching I had a pressure of 2 PSI in my fermentation keg.
This tells me the yeast is healthy. It has also gotten used to the yeast to wort ratios as it gets repitched into similar volumes each time.
I am finding that making Pilsners is really the hardest of all beer styles to make. You can just taste any flaws in them.
So now I have a couple of theories:
1. I could be tasting yeast autolysis. - In favour for this is the fact that I always find a yeast slurry in the bottom of the kegs which tastes unpleasant. Against - I had that awesome taste that I'm after in two batches where the keg was nearly empty and there was a high beer:yeast ratio. - Plan: Exclude residual yeast slurry. I will transfer my next batch to a lagering tank for 2 to 3 weeks and then filter to a serving keg to minimise the amount of yeast present.
2. I am not adding enough hops.
Plan - add more aroma hops.
3. The flavour may be diacetyl. For - ? I'm willing to try it. Against: cold pitch and 2 days at 15 degrees at end of primary fermentatio.
Plan - go for 3 days at 15 degrees.
One thing I have noted though: When I get that yeast cake and some of the trub out of the primary and store it in my sterile bottles, I can smell that beautiful European beer smell right there. The smell that you get when you crack and whiff a quality German beer.

 

[elmondo]

On a different note....
first batch with the DIY control panel.
Shed some tears of joy and delight. Thanks to all the advice on the other threads and the electric brewery of course!

 

[Rocker1986]

I've been following this thread with some interest. I took a couple of SG samples of my Bo Pils late last week to confirm it had reached FG, which it had, and they tasted absolutely brilliant, for that stage of the process anyway. Pretty much exactly what I expected when I formulated the recipe. I hope they stay like that once bottled and carbed and don't lose any of it like yours have.

 

[mfeighan]

diacetyl, diacetyl, diacetyl
I think a lot of you have missed that he is fermenting under pressure and @14c i have found since doing pressurised ferments my lagers have little to no diacetyl after primary has finished. I would account these correlations with the low pitch temp and the higher ferment temp when the pressure is up which allows the yeast enough energy to clean up its mess. I do leave it at 14 for about 2 weeks most of the ferment is done after 1 week at 14 deg.

 

[verysupple]

diacetyl, diacetyl, diacetyl
I think a lot of you have missed that he is fermenting under pressure and @14c i have found since doing pressurised ferments my lagers have little to no diacetyl after primary has finished. I would account these correlations with the low pitch temp and the higher ferment temp when the pressure is up which allows the yeast enough energy to clean up its mess. I do leave it at 14 for about 2 weeks most of the ferment is done after 1 week at 14 deg.

I'm not sure I follow you. You're saying that because of the way he ferments he doesn't get diacetyl. How does not having diacetyl make the flavour disappear after packaging?