Where did my beautiful taste go?

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elmondo

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Hi guys.
I have a problem, that when I taste my beer as I'm transferring it to my kegs, it tastes great. Full aroma, deep flavour and a lovely yeast flavour.
After a month in the kegs at 1 degree that flavour is gone. Disappeared! I'm left with a blander tasting beer. Lagering for up to 3 months hasn't brought that taste back.
I am very careful about oxygenation when I transfer, hence I purge all the star san no rinse solution out of the keg with CO2 and then pruge it and the lines some more.
I brew under pressure in corny kegs and transfer with counter pressure.
I have experimented with different yeasts, including Wyeast Danish lager, Bohemian lager and Bavarian lager. Always taste great at the end of primary fermentation. Then taste gets lost....
I make pilsners, full grain mash, pitch large amounts of yeast at 8 degrees and ramp up temp slowly for a diacetyl rest at 15 degrees over two weeks usually.
My yeast starters are stepped, usually 2liters, then 4 litres and lately a 10 litre batch under Oxygen pressure. I get a huge amount of slurry from that!
Anyone else able to help with the taste dissipation problem?
 
Well, it sounds like you're doing all the right things in terms of brewing, fermenting, and packaging; so I'm going to look at the post-packaging stage. What temp. are you serving at? What carbonation levels are you targeting?

I find that the carbonation level plays a big role in the amout of malt flavour and aroma I get coming through. My beers always seem more malty before packaging. And of course you're probably aware that the colder you serve your beer the less flavour and aroma you can perceive.

Are the beers tasting completely bland after packaging and carbonating, or just less flavoursome than before packaging? Maybe they're fine and the natural change in perception due to carbonation, serving temp. etc. is the only thing going on?
 
Thanks.
I serve at 7 degrees.
Lagering occurs at 1 degree.
I ferment at 20 PSI final pressure and maintain this through the lagering period, although the temp does mean that CO2 gets absorbed as I chill the kegs for lagering.
Could it be to do with yeast levels? As primary finishes, there are more suspended cells that add to the flavour. Is that lost as the cells settle out?
The flavour improves in some aspects - mainly the mouthfeel and aftertaste. However, the smell and initial front palate taste become bland.
 
Yeast in suspension in a lager is probably detrimental to the flavour rather than aiding it.

Seven degrees isn't super cold, especially for a lager, so I don't think that's your problem. Of course, everything seems vamped up at higher temps, so if you're comparing it to a tasting at a warmer temp, that could explain a bit.

I don't keg so PSI doesn't mean a lot to me. That said, it's not too hard to back off the pressure and let it equalise (or just purge some of the CO2 off) to find out if lower carbonation is more to your liking.

How do they taste compared to commercial beers or other peoples home brews?
 
What I love about German beers is the initial smell when you crack the top off it. A mixture of aroma hops, malt and a Brewer's yeast smell. That smell is what you taste initially. I'm talking about something like Radeberger, or Bitburger pils or Flensburger.

My beer is good in the aftertaste. However, the initial smell and taste are far from what Im after.
Hard to describe that taste unfortunately. But frustrating to have had it at the end of primary and then to loose it.
 
just a quick question, what temp are you tasting the good taste at? You say you ramp up to <edit 15> are you tasting at 15 then dropping down to 1 then serving at 7? Or tasting @ 1 and its good then losing it later

I tasted my pils at bottling temp which was around .5 deg, there was no real flavour to speak of, I'm hoping that serving at 4 deg will bring the flavour back out

Do you have to add some fresh yeast when bottling after long cold lagering? I guess that's not an issue with kegging

Good luck sorting it out anyway!
 
I usually chill the beer before kegging. Down to 7 degrees. It tastes good then.
 
well i ,m the same ales though taste it before kegging & sware its the best beer I have brewesd
1 week in carbed up s*hit what happened to my award winner still allright though
2 weeks in adjust carb levels change mind a bit not bad
3 weeks in bloody beautifull maybe s$#t beers finished
 
^ There's obviously nothing wrong with the ABV at least.
 
elmondo said:
Lagering for up to 3 months hasn't brought that taste back
Lagering won't. Lagering is meant to smooth out flavours and clean a beer up, not really increase existing flavours and aromas.

Often pre-lagering, the lager/pils won't taste that great. Sulfur, a lot of yeast character etc. With time that fades and you're left with a nice clean finished beer.

Maybe there's not enough flavour and aroma to start with? What's your recipe and process before fermentation?
 
I bottle so am not familiar with kegging but beer losing flavour over time is a common occurrence.

One yeast I have used that I thought highlighted malt flavour well was Nottingham Ale yeast. While not a true lager yeast it does produce beer with lager like characteristics and will tolerate cold temps quite well. It is also easier to use than lager yeast. Maybe try Notto for your next ferment.

If you want hop flavour chuck a couple of bags of hops into your keg.
 
do you add gelatin when you move from primary to secondary? I found out one time that when I added too much gelatin to my "bright tank" that, while the beer was crystal clear, much of the good taste had dropped out. Now I make sure to just use 1 teaspoon/keg. But even then a lot of the aromas are gone after ~6 weeks. Just gotta drink faster :)
 
I don't use gelatin. The beer is usually quite clear by the time I transfer it to the lagering keg.
The recipes I use do usually provide me with beer that tastes full of aroma at the end of primary.
Could it be sulphur escaping?
 
Have you tried drinking them sooner? Like, pretty much as soon as they are chilled and carbonated rather than leaving them sit for a month? It seems rather odd that you'd lose that much flavour/aroma in only a month though, but then I bottle rather than keg my beers so I guess the conditioning is different.
 
Could it be that you in fact prefer the aspects of a beer that are more aligned with an ale than a lager? i.e. the yeast esters and pungency from hops, which you get more pre-lagering, but then lose as the yeast settles out and the lagering process breaks down some of these compounds?? Maybe you are deep down an ale lover but you have convinced yourself that lagers are where it is at, and subsequently refined your processes to pimp them out when I more rustic beer style and process may suit your pallet more??? ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I am trying to make something similar to a german Pils like Radeberger ( Liquorland, Vintage Cellars) or Becks, Bitburger or Flensburger.
These are definetely Pils/Lagers. Yet they have that rich aroma that I'm after. You can smell it when you crack the top off one. And that first initial taste has it.
Maybe they don't lager long and filter all the yeast straight out bwefore it breaks down those flavours?
However, Pilsner Urquell apparently lager their beer for 9 months before releasing it. It too has that great aroma.
 
In doing a pilsner at the moment. To keep the flavour going I'm going to make a hop tea of saaz hops late in fermentation.
 
elmondo said:
However, Pilsner Urquell apparently lager their beer for 9 months before releasing it. It too has that great aroma.
They may have used to do that but not anymore. According to a write up about Urquell in which the bloke did a tour of the brewery, "The modern practice adds the blended beer to 56 stainless steel tanks, each holding 3,300 hL, for 35-40 days of lagering (18)."


The whole thing actually reads: "The yeast is pitched at 39 °F (4 °C), and primary fermentation lasts 11 days. The temperature is allowed to rise to a maximum of 48 °F (9 °C) before fermentation is halted and the young beer from each of the fermentors is combined for lagering (18).

The lagering phase: In the past, Pilsner Urquell was lagered for three months in 25-hL wooden barrels stored in a network of sandstone tunnels beneath the brewery. The tunnels extended for about 6 miles and occupied an area of 2,250 square miles (about half an acre). The oak and beechwood barrels were lined with pitch, a dark resin extracted from conifer trees (3,15), to protect the beer from any contaminants in the wood. The modern practice adds the blended beer to 56 stainless steel tanks, each holding 3,300 hL, for 35-40 days of lagering (18)."

Urquell is not dry hopped or whirlpool hopped either.
 

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