Where did my beautiful taste go?

[elmondo]

Hi guys.
I have a problem, that when I taste my beer as I'm transferring it to my kegs, it tastes great. Full aroma, deep flavour and a lovely yeast flavour.
After a month in the kegs at 1 degree that flavour is gone. Disappeared! I'm left with a blander tasting beer. Lagering for up to 3 months hasn't brought that taste back.
I am very careful about oxygenation when I transfer, hence I purge all the star san no rinse solution out of the keg with CO2 and then pruge it and the lines some more.
I brew under pressure in corny kegs and transfer with counter pressure.
I have experimented with different yeasts, including Wyeast Danish lager, Bohemian lager and Bavarian lager. Always taste great at the end of primary fermentation. Then taste gets lost....
I make pilsners, full grain mash, pitch large amounts of yeast at 8 degrees and ramp up temp slowly for a diacetyl rest at 15 degrees over two weeks usually.
My yeast starters are stepped, usually 2liters, then 4 litres and lately a 10 litre batch under Oxygen pressure. I get a huge amount of slurry from that!
Anyone else able to help with the taste dissipation problem?

 

[verysupple]

Well, it sounds like you're doing all the right things in terms of brewing, fermenting, and packaging; so I'm going to look at the post-packaging stage. What temp. are you serving at? What carbonation levels are you targeting?

I find that the carbonation level plays a big role in the amout of malt flavour and aroma I get coming through. My beers always seem more malty before packaging. And of course you're probably aware that the colder you serve your beer the less flavour and aroma you can perceive.

Are the beers tasting completely bland after packaging and carbonating, or just less flavoursome than before packaging? Maybe they're fine and the natural change in perception due to carbonation, serving temp. etc. is the only thing going on?

 

[elmondo]

Thanks.
I serve at 7 degrees.
Lagering occurs at 1 degree.
I ferment at 20 PSI final pressure and maintain this through the lagering period, although the temp does mean that CO2 gets absorbed as I chill the kegs for lagering.
Could it be to do with yeast levels? As primary finishes, there are more suspended cells that add to the flavour. Is that lost as the cells settle out?
The flavour improves in some aspects - mainly the mouthfeel and aftertaste. However, the smell and initial front palate taste become bland.

 

[verysupple]

Yeast in suspension in a lager is probably detrimental to the flavour rather than aiding it.

Seven degrees isn't super cold, especially for a lager, so I don't think that's your problem. Of course, everything seems vamped up at higher temps, so if you're comparing it to a tasting at a warmer temp, that could explain a bit.

I don't keg so PSI doesn't mean a lot to me. That said, it's not too hard to back off the pressure and let it equalise (or just purge some of the CO2 off) to find out if lower carbonation is more to your liking.

How do they taste compared to commercial beers or other peoples home brews?

 

[elmondo]

What I love about German beers is the initial smell when you crack the top off it. A mixture of aroma hops, malt and a Brewer's yeast smell. That smell is what you taste initially. I'm talking about something like Radeberger, or Bitburger pils or Flensburger.

My beer is good in the aftertaste. However, the initial smell and taste are far from what Im after.
Hard to describe that taste unfortunately. But frustrating to have had it at the end of primary and then to loose it.

 

[droid]

just a quick question, what temp are you tasting the good taste at? You say you ramp up to <edit 15> are you tasting at 15 then dropping down to 1 then serving at 7? Or tasting @ 1 and its good then losing it later

I tasted my pils at bottling temp which was around .5 deg, there was no real flavour to speak of, I'm hoping that serving at 4 deg will bring the flavour back out

Do you have to add some fresh yeast when bottling after long cold lagering? I guess that's not an issue with kegging

Good luck sorting it out anyway!

 

[elmondo]

I usually chill the beer before kegging. Down to 7 degrees. It tastes good then.

 

[rude]

well i ,m the same ales though taste it before kegging & sware its the best beer I have brewesd
1 week in carbed up s*hit what happened to my award winner still allright though
2 weeks in adjust carb levels change mind a bit not bad
3 weeks in bloody beautifull maybe s$#t beers finished

 

[Camo6]

^ There's obviously nothing wrong with the ABV at least.

 

[Spiesy]

Lagering for up to 3 months hasn't brought that taste back

Lagering won't. Lagering is meant to smooth out flavours and clean a beer up, not really increase existing flavours and aromas.

Often pre-lagering, the lager/pils won't taste that great. Sulfur, a lot of yeast character etc. With time that fades and you're left with a nice clean finished beer.

Maybe there's not enough flavour and aroma to start with? What's your recipe and process before fermentation?

 

[hoppy2B]

I bottle so am not familiar with kegging but beer losing flavour over time is a common occurrence.

One yeast I have used that I thought highlighted malt flavour well was Nottingham Ale yeast. While not a true lager yeast it does produce beer with lager like characteristics and will tolerate cold temps quite well. It is also easier to use than lager yeast. Maybe try Notto for your next ferment.

If you want hop flavour chuck a couple of bags of hops into your keg.

 

[pcmfisher]

Bottle a few and do a side by side test.

 

[mb-squared]

do you add gelatin when you move from primary to secondary? I found out one time that when I added too much gelatin to my "bright tank" that, while the beer was crystal clear, much of the good taste had dropped out. Now I make sure to just use 1 teaspoon/keg. But even then a lot of the aromas are gone after ~6 weeks. Just gotta drink faster

 

[elmondo]

I don't use gelatin. The beer is usually quite clear by the time I transfer it to the lagering keg.
The recipes I use do usually provide me with beer that tastes full of aroma at the end of primary.
Could it be sulphur escaping?

 

[Rocker1986]

Have you tried drinking them sooner? Like, pretty much as soon as they are chilled and carbonated rather than leaving them sit for a month? It seems rather odd that you'd lose that much flavour/aroma in only a month though, but then I bottle rather than keg my beers so I guess the conditioning is different.

 

[Ninegrain]

Could it be that you in fact prefer the aspects of a beer that are more aligned with an ale than a lager? i.e. the yeast esters and pungency from hops, which you get more pre-lagering, but then lose as the yeast settles out and the lagering process breaks down some of these compounds?? Maybe you are deep down an ale lover but you have convinced yourself that lagers are where it is at, and subsequently refined your processes to pimp them out when I more rustic beer style and process may suit your pallet more???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[elmondo]

I am trying to make something similar to a german Pils like Radeberger ( Liquorland, Vintage Cellars) or Becks, Bitburger or Flensburger.
These are definetely Pils/Lagers. Yet they have that rich aroma that I'm after. You can smell it when you crack the top off one. And that first initial taste has it.
Maybe they don't lager long and filter all the yeast straight out bwefore it breaks down those flavours?
However, Pilsner Urquell apparently lager their beer for 9 months before releasing it. It too has that great aroma.

 

[panzerd18]

In doing a pilsner at the moment. To keep the flavour going I'm going to make a hop tea of saaz hops late in fermentation.

 

[Rocker1986]

However, Pilsner Urquell apparently lager their beer for 9 months before releasing it. It too has that great aroma.

They may have used to do that but not anymore. According to a write up about Urquell in which the bloke did a tour of the brewery, "The modern practice adds the blended beer to 56 stainless steel tanks, each holding 3,300 hL, for 35-40 days of lagering (18)."


The whole thing actually reads: "The yeast is pitched at 39 °F (4 °C), and primary fermentation lasts 11 days. The temperature is allowed to rise to a maximum of 48 °F (9 °C) before fermentation is halted and the young beer from each of the fermentors is combined for lagering (18).

The lagering phase: In the past, Pilsner Urquell was lagered for three months in 25-hL wooden barrels stored in a network of sandstone tunnels beneath the brewery. The tunnels extended for about 6 miles and occupied an area of 2,250 square miles (about half an acre). The oak and beechwood barrels were lined with pitch, a dark resin extracted from conifer trees (3,15), to protect the beer from any contaminants in the wood. The modern practice adds the blended beer to 56 stainless steel tanks, each holding 3,300 hL, for 35-40 days of lagering (18)."

Urquell is not dry hopped or whirlpool hopped either.

 

[elmondo]

Thanks. I remember reading that article in Brewing Technique some time ago. Clearly remembered the numbers incorrectly. Thanks for correction!
Here is the link for those interested:
http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue5.3/urquell.html

 

[elmondo]

Ok. I'm starting to think that I can taste residual yeast that has been carried over from the primary to the lager keg.
My procedure so far:
Ferment in keg under pressure . Usually 12 to 14 days. Start at 8 degrees and then raise temp to 14 degrees under 20 PSI until primary complete.
Then cool beer to 7 degrees and transfer to lagering corny keg with counter pressure. Primary keg has shortened "out" conduit. Initial cloudy sediment is discarded from primary.
Beer in lager keg is then lagered for 4 -6 weeks or longer at 1 degree.

I will try and transfer the beer to another keg after about 2 weeks to avoid having it on that fine yeast sediment. That may retain some of those flavours and prevent their breakdown.
Any thoughts?

 

[hoppy2B]

I just think that you need to find the right yeast. Just keep trying different lager yeasts if you want to use a lager yeast.

One of the things I noticed when using Nottingham ale yeast was that the beer it produced had a huge caramel aroma when I used only 30 grams of Caraaroma. Hops are subdued a bit by Notto though. Try Notto if you dare, it could be what you are looking for.

 

[Rocker1986]

No dramas mate. I'd done a bit of research into Pilsner Urquell when I started coming up with a recipe for a Bo Pils. I stumbled upon that site in a Google search at some stage and it was a very interesting read.

I'm not trying to clone Urquell but I thought I could take a few ideas from that and use them as a baseline to work from, and sort of adapt parts to suit my own system. I've used a version of their hopping schedule, which I'm playing with at the moment, I'll keep their times but adjust the amounts of each addition to see what it brings. I can't do decoction mashes on my system with any simplicity so I've decided on a Hochkurz schedule instead.

Anyway that's all a bit off topic, but yeah... your experience is quite mysterious and I can't really offer any help or ideas as to why it's happening. I can't say it's anything I've experienced in my lagers. They always taste better once they are carbonated and served, than they do in the primary. Maybe it's something to do with fermenting and lagering under pressure; being in a (relative to commercial situations) microscopic home brew scale it may have different effects than it does in large scale commercial brewing. I'm not saying it is that, but just a thought.

 

[manticle]

What do you mean you can't do decoctions? All you need is a stove, a pot and a spoon.

 

[siiren]

I have just done a side by side with a double decocted Oktoberfest, one bottle conditioned and one bottle filled from keg, not cpbf'ed but slow poured.
Taste wise, the bottle conditioned has about double the flavour of the comparison.
I thought it could be either oxidation or a sub prime bottle filling method, not sure how fast this occurs, or the rousing of yeast during force carbonation (yesterday)
However… The second pour from the conditioned bottle had less flavour than the first pour, probably due to the roused yeast, as with the forced carbed.
I'm thinking that yeast suspension could be a lack of flavour issue too.
With lagers anyway.
I will need to do a side by side once the keg has settled too.

 

[Rocker1986]

What do you mean you can't do decoctions? All you need is a stove, a pot and a spoon.

Which I have, but I really can't be bothered scooping grains out of the bottom of a 40 litre urn into a pot then walking up and down stairs with a pot full of hot or boiling mixture etc. Yes, I could do it, but it's too much faffing about that I can't be arsed with when I'm more than satisfied with the results from a more "normal" mash schedule. B)

 

[manticle]

So you can but choose not to?
Fair enough but long way from being limited by your system.
Decoctions are pretty easy by the way - fun to do and makeca distinct difference to final flavour.
Totally unnecessary but worthwhile in my experience.

 

[Rocker1986]

Yeah, it's not really limited in that sense, I could do it if I really wanted to. I actually had to do something similar on a batch recently when I attempted a full step mash but the amount of **** released by the grains at the low temperature first step caused the urn's element to keep cutting out, so I ended up draining wort into a stock pot and taking it upstairs to the stove to boil and return to the urn to bring the temp up. Not something I'm in a hurry to repeat, to be honest. :lol:

The process itself though, yes I don't think is difficult, but yeah makes for a much more enjoyable brew day not to do it at the moment at least.

 

[Jack of all biers]

Hi guys.
I have a problem, that when I taste my beer as I'm transferring it to my kegs, it tastes great. Full aroma, deep flavour and a lovely yeast flavour.
After a month in the kegs at 1 degree that flavour is gone. Disappeared! I'm left with a blander tasting beer. Lagering for up to 3 months hasn't brought that taste back.

I have experimented with different yeasts, including Wyeast Danish lager, Bohemian lager and Bavarian lager. Always taste great at the end of primary fermentation. Then taste gets lost....
I make pilsners, full grain mash, pitch large amounts of yeast at 8 degrees and ramp up temp slowly for a diacetyl rest at 15 degrees over two weeks usually.
My yeast starters are stepped, usually 2liters, then 4 litres and lately a 10 litre batch under Oxygen pressure. I get a huge amount of slurry from that!
Anyone else able to help with the taste dissipation problem?

Firstly, if your above fermenting schedule is correct, you won't need a diacetyl rest when pitching your yeast at 8C (as long as your yeast starter is also at the same temp as the fermentor and has had time to adjust to this temp. ie 24hrs). Otherwise your other methods are first rate in my opinion. If its the yeast flavour that is missing after a month at 1C then I'm not surprissed as it has all but settled out. If it is the flavour/aroma you describe below then...

What I love about German beers is the initial smell when you crack the top off it. A mixture of aroma hops, malt and a Brewer's yeast smell. That smell is what you taste initially. I'm talking about something like Radeberger, or Bitburger pils or Flensburger.

My beer is good in the aftertaste. However, the initial smell and taste are far from what Im after.
Hard to describe that taste unfortunately. But frustrating to have had it at the end of primary and then to loose it.

Maybe, I think I know what aroma you are refering to and it is hard to put into words. I'll go out on a limb and say a combo of malt, DMS and the way the yeast deal with it (ie produce that faint rotten egg smell which is sometimes just dissernable in the above commercial beers when just opened. Do you filter out the yeast? I'm wondering if your lagering is done without yeast in the keg? If so, and you are pressurising it all with bottled CO2 then are you possibly purging, or if you don't filter, diluting the CO2 that the yeast create which would have the DMS aroma effect?

I know that the commercial beers you refer to above are also filtered, but because they are super efficient germans, who knows if they don't recycle the CO2 that they create to repressurise the kegs/bottled end product (and save the world's problem of global warming one brew at a time ). Because I don't keg, I could be way off and ignore me if so.

 

[Yob]

you won't need a diacetyl rest when pitching your yeast at 8C (as long as your yeast starter is also at the same temp as the fermentor and has had time to adjust to this temp. ie 24hrs). .

pardon?