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Wheat Syrup

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Ross

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Hi guys,

The head brewer at badgers in the Uk has given me the basic recipe for tanglefoot ale. It requires 12% wheat syrup. Is this something readily available?

cheers Ross
 

pint of lager

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Morgans sell wheat lme in one kilo tins, this would probably be fine to use.
 

Ross

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POL,

I assumed the wheat syrup was something different form straight malt extract - otherwise why wouldn't they just use some wheat grain?
 

pint of lager

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Without knowing the full background to the recipe it is impossible to say why a brewery used wheat syrup instead of just adding grain to the tun. Maybe they were limited in brew size and didn't want to use malted wheat, maybe they didn't have access to malted wheat, maybe they had some extract spare to use up, maybe they thought you had no idea about mashing and devised a recipe around extract.

I do not know. But if I had a recipe that called for wheat syrup, I would be adding malted wheat grain to the mash.

Depends on your brewery, if you mash use malted wheat grain, if you extract brew, use wheat LME.
 

Ross

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POL,

Advised brewery I was all grain brewing, here is actual response

"Tanglefoot is not all malt but has ca 12% wheat syrup added but no other cereal ingredients. Hops are Target at the start and Challenger towards the end of the boil. Again the cask is dry hopped but with Styrian Goldings. The yeast used is the Hall & Woodhouse Badger strain that has been used here for many years"

If wheat syrup is just wheat malt, I'll take you advice & add wheat malt.

Thanks :beer:
 

pint of lager

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Maybe our foriegn correspondant Kook, could enlighten us.

From "Home Brewing, the CAMRA Guide" by Graham Wheeler, there is a brief item on "barley syrup" which is frowned upon for brewing. It is made using industrial enzymes rather than mashing. Maybe the wheat syrup is something similar.

If I was brewing your recipe, I would be using malted wheat grain in the mash tun.

Did the recipe include the fg, og, IBU's, yeast used and the grain bill?
 

Ross

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POL,

I'm pretty sure it uses just Marris Otter pale with the wheat. OG 1045 -1050. 4.9%. Bitterness is medium, I'd guess about 30 IBU. I've asked the brewery more questions & just waiting to hear...
 

PeterS

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I am not sure if this will help at all since I have no idea hence I should pull my head in, but in my search for wheat syrup I noted that the U.K was most responsive to my search.

In particular I noted in the home brew shop co.uk they had a picture of a 1.5kg can of Brupaks Premium Grade Wheat Malt Extract as read from the packet yet they referred to this as Wheat Malt Extrtact Syrup.

In light of that I tend to side with pint of lager. Only because all extracts looks like a syrup.

On the other hand, I could not find much usefull local info on the subject, which I am sure you discovered yourself..

Thanks for the rest stop this morning, it was much appreciated.

:beer:
 

Ross

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Peter,

I've gone back to the brewery for clarification; hopefully they will explain...

Was nice to meet you this morning - look forward to comparing our first AG beers...

Cheers

Ross
 

kook

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I'll ask the brewer next time I'm at Pitfield, he's normally hanging around the shop.

I havent heard about "syrup" over here but I'm presuming its just liquid extract.
 

Batz

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What a site this is hey?

Ask a question and whoa!

Batz
 

dicko

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Ross,
If you found the wheat syrup hard to get you could use wheat dried malt extract or if AG you might try torrified wheat.
Just my thoughts,
Cheers
 

pint of lager

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After a bit of googling and reading, I have come up with the following.

Wort is made from malted barley. Liquid malt extract is made from wort that has been boiled under a vacuum. This can either be a thick liquid, or the wort can be spray dried like dried milk.

A cheaper version is to use plain barley that has not been malted, crush it, add industrial enzymes and then make the liquid extract. This is usually called barley syrup and is frowned upon to be used in brewing. Unless correctly formulated, there are the wrong mix of malt sugars in it for brewing. Problems faced when brewing with this include poor attenuation, complete attenuation and wrong flavour profile. This stuff is cheaper to produce because it bypasses the malting process. So if your homebrew kit says barley syrup, beware. Also beware of buying cheap lines from healthfood stores, they may not be formulated correctly for brewing. Rice syrup, which is sometimes available from the brewshops would also be made with industrial enzymes.

Wheat syrup would be made along similar lines. Breweries may use wheat syrup rather than malted wheat extract in a brew as it would be cheaper to obtain. Also, they may find using syrup or extract does not lead to cloudiness.

Brewing terminology suffers from shortening long names. For instance, LME, do we mean light malt extract or liquid malt extract. Useage depends on what is commonly understand in one area. Confusion reigns when a simple name or acronym is spoken to a beginner or used in another region. Another good example is the term Brix, which is used to describe the density of beer in breweries, but us as homebrewers usually use sg points.

Corn syrup is another great misnomer. The better term to use is maltodextrin. And in Australia it is derived from wheat starch, not corn.

So back to the original question, is it wheat syrup or liquid malted wheat extract? Hopefully, the next lot of info that Ross obtains from the brewery will not fall into the trap of brevity and general regional term useage.
 

Tim

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ive seen wheat syrup in the health food isle at coles.
They also had a rice extract and barley extract
 

Ross

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Just received this answer to my question on the wheat syrup

Q: What's wheat syrup? Is there some reason for using this instead of adding straight wheat grain?


Ans: The wheat syrup we use is a sugar syrup derived from wheat that has a similar sugar spectrum to that of malt. It helps to dilute the malt character and give a clean crisp mouthfeel to beers of higher gravity. We use it with Tanglefoot as we want the hop & fermentation flavours to come through strongly

Anyone any the wiser?...
 

pint of lager

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Ross said:
Ans: The wheat syrup we use is a sugar syrup derived from wheat that has a similar sugar spectrum to that of malt. It helps to dilute the malt character and give a clean crisp mouthfeel to beers of higher gravity. We use it with Tanglefoot as we want the hop & fermentation flavours to come through strongly

Anyone any the wiser?...
[post="49239"][/post]​
OK, this is syrup made from plain unmalted wheat using industrial enzymes. It is probably cheaper for the brewery to use this rather than going to the trouble of using malted grain, as already outlined in an earlier post. The brewery probably specifies exactly what ratio of different malt sugars they want in the syrup. It probably ferments almost all the way out with very little flavour contribution to the beer. Do not substitute wheat syrup from the healthfood aisle, you have no idea what contribution this will make to your brew.

To match something like what the brewery is using, use half the % as malted wheat grain, the other 50% as dextrose. So 6% wheat malt, and 6% dextrose.

Or, just use malted wheat grain for the whole 12%, this will up the wheat component slightly compared to the commercial example.

Or, you can make it your life commitment to making an exact clone of this beer. Try different versions of the same recipe until you get exactly the same flavours.
 

Ross

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POL,

Thanks for that, a great help :D

I don't think I will be making it my lifetime quest - lol - but it is a lovely drop & I'll certainly have a go at making something similar.

How about dicko's idea of using torrified wheat, wouldn't that be a good substitution?

If I go the wheat grain, how about adding some flaked maize to reduce the maltiness?
 

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If you want to reduce the maltiness, go with the 6% malted wheat grain and 6% dextrose, this will reduce the maltiness. The wheat syrup will reduce the maltiness of the 12%, but not the maltiness of the the other 88% of the grain bill.

As a homebrewer, you can brew to what flavours you want, you will probably find you enjoy the extra maltiness.
 

dicko

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Hi Ross,
My sugestion of Torrified Wheat was based on the fact that with these English styles Torrified wheat and Wheat malt was used extensively.

Obviously if a brewery can save a few bob by using a syrup that someone can produce for them then they will use it purely based on an economic decision.
Thers are many "clone" recipes that have different ingredients to the original and this is mainly based around what is available to the homebrewer and what is economical to the commercial/micro brewer.

Give the brew a go and if you are not satisfied, then change one ingredient at a time to try to get the replicated brew or at least the one that you are happy with.
My favourite style is the english bitter beer and the wheat syrup would be added to increase the body and gain some head retention.

As POL said you might achieve the result by using some dextrose and then some wheat malt or my favourite, Torrified wheat or you could even add some flaked rice to achieve the same but this would be "out of style" with this style.

This is only my opinion so give a base recipe a go and modify it to suit your tastes or achieve the exact clone.

Cheers and let us all know how you go,
 

Ross

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Cheers POL & Dicko,

your advice is really appreciated....

++++

Dicko - The torrified wheat I was recommended & bought, was the puffed wheat made by sanitarium.
I opened a packet today & the wheat is so light it just floats - how on earth will I mash something that floats?? there's no doubt a really obvious answer, but it's eluding me....
 
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