Weird DME behavior in starter flask

[mofox1]

What the heck is going on with this DME?

I use DME in my starters quite a bit. I've got a good yeast bank, so I'm no stranger to flask dme boils. But this latest sack of dme is driving me nuts.

I can't get it to boil without boiling over, the bubbles don't burst like the previous batches I've had... They just persist until ultimately it boils over. It also generates the mankiest protein crud (before it even comes to a boil). Giant freakin corn flake sized flakes of floating mank.

It's appearance is also not what I'm used to either... The powder is super fine, like corn flour. It doesn't dissolve easily, and it isn't the brown tinted straw brown when dissolved.. it's more of a watered down Coke colour. I reckon it tastes different too, it doesn't remind me so much of Milo/Ovaltinies as my last lot (which had a consistency more like Milo, a bit finer).

Currently boiling it in a pot before I tip back into the flasks.

WTF is up with this DME?

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Don't use it if it really bothers you that much. It sounds like terrible substandard crud.
Myself I'm tending toward thinking simply toward sugar mixture worts to start up yeasts happily.

Pure Dextrose for example. Combined with my own kept wort from non wasted trub means.
I will bottle the 4lt trub of a 40lt brew in 2lt bottles in the beer fridge in the shed. Cold crashed to 4c.

4lt trub = ~ 1.3lt beautiful clear beer wort for starters.

Pure sugar, Raw sugar, all good. You know even Molasses is full of goodness for yeasts too.
I have done these things myself and had good to great results.
It doesn't have to be Malt.
Think of your yeast as another ingredient treated in a certain way for preparation of the main meal.
$0.02

 

[mofox1]

Cheers, but I'd rather use a malt extract... obviously a quality malt extract. Reason being is I will split an initial yeast purchase and will often maintain the strain via yeast starters (rather than yeast rinsing), doing 6 or so iterations on the stir plate is probably around 18+ yeast generations. Rather them eatin what they will end up fermenting if ya dig.

I will concede that I would use sucrose if I had too (and given the state of the DME I have, it's close), but I wouldn't use it to build up yeast to bank (which is what one of the flasks was for tonight).

I haven't had great results with kettle leftovers either... not sure if it is a side effect of the whirfloc, but I find that left over wort has a tendency to get super-heated and go from perfectly still to massive eruption in 0.01 seconds. Burned twice, thrice... hm, plenty enough that I don't bother with leftover wort any more.

 

[Mardoo]

Are you using cold water to dissolve? I must admit to some hesitation when seeing this batch of DME. Haven't gotten into it yet myself. Just about to though.

How does the starter wort taste?

And DansCB, it's said you'll end up with yeast that can't digest complex sugars if you use simple sugars in your starters. I haven't tested it myself though.

 

[Kingy]

I brought some dme that was branded muntons it was like it had detergent in it. Straight in the bin.

 

[MHB]

What brand is the DME?
Mark

 

[SBOB]

I brought some dme that was branded muntons it was like it had detergent in it. Straight in the bin.

where was that from?

I seem to have mixed success with DME and it not being a volcano of mess

 

[billygoat]

I bought some DME from Grain and Grape, was branded Breiss Light Malt.
Same thing, kept boiling over. Went back to the DME I had usually bought from my LHBS and the problem was gone.
Ended up mixing 2/3 of the good DME with 1/3 of the Breiss, which didn't boil over, just to use it up.
Another brewer I know bought some and had the same problem.

 

[mofox1]

Are you using cold water to dissolve? I must admit to some hesitation when seeing this batch of DME. Haven't gotten into it yet myself. Just about to though.

How does the starter wort taste?

And DansCB, it's said you'll end up with yeast that can't digest complex sugars if you use simple sugars in your starters. I haven't tested it myself though.

Yeah - this was was the one I split with you. Last night was the tipping point where I knew it wasn't me doing anything wrong - belated heads up.

 

[mofox1]

I brought some dme that was branded muntons it was like it had detergent in it. Straight in the bin.

If it was only a few kilo's I might do the same. I split a carton and ended up with 15kg.

What brand is the DME?
Mark

Don't know now unfortunately - The label was on the carton, which I ditched a while back... nothing on the liner.

It was an overseas food manufacturing company IIRC, no specific mention of brewing or what sort of malt, colour, etc. Might have to check with the retailer to see if anyone else has had issues with it.

I'll probably use it for added sugars in my higher gravity beers (darker ones, due to the colour), and I'll need to source another sack/carton for starters et al.

Can you recommend a good DME product/supplier Mark? I don't recall who made of the ones I've used before, it was all repackaged stuff of acquired via bulk buys. Probably Keg King/Bintani as the local dist, don't know what brand they carried at that point.

 

[MHB]

Just had a quick look and Bintani and Keg King both appear to be stocking Wanda DME made in Switzerland. I used to order that malt by the ton (literally) and never had a problem with any of it.
Not saying that you haven't come across a bad or contaminated batch if indeed it is Wanda DME and not somethin else.
There have been over the years some very inexpensive Extract from China, I doubt it was malt just barley (maybe) an exogenous enzyme (boiled low grade barley and enzymes). The problem with this type of product is that as the base grain isn't malted so there is very little breakdown of protein, classic symptom are high to uncontrollable foaming and hazy worts.
I suspect you have been stuck with a ringer - the Wanda malt comes in a 20kg bag not a box/carton - It will probably work as a starter base even if it is a PITA.
I don't know where you are located so recommending a retailer is a problem, but I suspect that if you put the question to your preferred retailer as which extract they are selling they should be more than happy to tell you.
I know exactly what my local (Brewman) sells and he does bag prices if you want them.

If you can give the DME you have a boil for an hour or so it might come good as it drops a fair fraction of the high molecular weight protein. still a pain.
Mark

 

[Mardoo]

Definitely not Wanda. That's what we got in the bulk buy Yob did a couple years back. The one Mofix and I have was from a supplier I've never seen before. Australian company, but that says nothing about where it was made. Wish I could remember who it was!

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

As a quick experiment, try throwing some hop pellets in before it gets to the boil.

Might be best to start in a saucepan, heat it up, hop it, get it to the boil, turn it off and let it settle for a minute or two then decant to your conical.

The idea here is that Mark is probably right, the symptoms sound like an excess of the wrong kinds of proteins. The polyphenols in the hops should bind some of them so they'll drop out.

 

[timmi9191]

Or anti-foam if you dont want IBUs in your starter

 

[Black n Tan]

Definitely not Wanda. That's what we got in the bulk buy Yob did a couple years back. The one Mofix and I have was from a supplier I've never seen before. Australian company, but that says nothing about where it was made. Wish I could remember who it was!

I imagine this is the same ***** I have also from the BB a few months back. it is called Flavex from Halycon Pty Ltd. Horrible stuff to dissolve. Only 19kg to go!

http://www.halcyonproteins.com.au/malt_extracts.asp

 

[manticle]

Don't use it if it really bothers you that much. It sounds like terrible substandard crud.
Myself I'm tending toward thinking simply toward sugar mixture worts to start up yeasts happily.

Pure Dextrose for example. Combined with my own kept wort from non wasted trub means.
I will bottle the 4lt trub of a 40lt brew in 2lt bottles in the beer fridge in the shed. Cold crashed to 4c.

4lt trub = ~ 1.3lt beautiful clear beer wort for starters.

Pure sugar, Raw sugar, all good. You know even Molasses is full of goodness for yeasts too.
I have done these things myself and had good to great results.
It doesn't have to be Malt.
Think of your yeast as another ingredient treated in a certain way for preparation of the main meal.
$0.02

You say it doesn't have to be malt but you are using malt.

I also reserve wort for my starters. There's very little evidence that dex on its own is beneficial in a starter.

@mofox - the fact that you're unsure of its origin, intended purpose and mislike the texture and behaviour is indicative of the fact it is sub par. Make some cookies, buy some good ****.

 

[mofox1]

You say it doesn't have to be malt but you are using malt.

I also reserve wort for my starters. There's very little evidence that dex on its own is beneficial in a starter.

@mofox - the fact that you're unsure of its origin, intended purpose and mislike the texture and behaviour is indicative of the fact it is sub par. Make some cookies, buy some good ****.

Grant's on the money - I was wrong, it is an Aust company. Must be using up that stockpile of dodgy JW malt from a few years back.... h34r:

 

[mofox1]

Definitely not Wanda. That's what we got in the bulk buy Yob did a couple years back. The one Mofix and I have was from a supplier I've never seen before. Australian company, but that says nothing about where it was made. Wish I could remember who it was!

Awesome. Now I know the stuff I want to buy

Apologies for the dodge extract dude.

 

[Mardoo]

I imagine this is the same ***** I have also from the BB a few months back. it is called Flavex from Halycon Pty Ltd. Horrible stuff to dissolve. Only 19kg to go!

http://www.halcyonproteins.com.au/malt_extracts.asp

That's the stuff.

The Swiss stuff and the Briess have both done me right in the past.

And Moffie, we both skipped naively into that sunset. No worries.

 

[mofox1]

As a quick experiment, try throwing some hop pellets in before it gets to the boil.

Might be best to start in a saucepan, heat it up, hop it, get it to the boil, turn it off and let it settle for a minute or two then decant to your conical.

The idea here is that Mark is probably right, the symptoms sound like an excess of the wrong kinds of proteins. The polyphenols in the hops should bind some of them so they'll drop out.

That's basically what I did - minus the hop pellet addition. Will try that next time (if I don't have the good stuff by then).