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Weihenstephan Wheat Yeast

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Borret

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Ok I am a bit bummed.

Did my first partial last weeked and it was a wiezen beer. Mash went fine, even tried a ferulic acid rest at 43 deg for 1/2 hr, 1hr rest at 65deg and mid 70's mash out and 90 boil went fine. Was pleased- got 1049 from 2kg grain and 1 kg wheat LME in 15 litres.
The starter I made for this beer fermented out and was chilled 2 days before pitching. It tasted right with plenty of banana from being cultured at ambient (25 deg )temps. I only pitched about 300ml of it with the slurry from the whole 1.7 litres. I cold pitched it with the wort at 16 deg and brought it up to 19/20 over about 12 hrs where it stayed for it's duration. I aerated with an airstone for about 1/2 to 3/4 hr before sealing fermentor .Activity started after avout 10hrs. Krausen got to about 1/4 the wort depth so thinks worked OK.

Has fermented out in 5 days to 1011 with yeasty goodness flocced to the top. Now it definately tasts more grainy and fresh, I'm pleased with that but the yeast characteristics just aren't there yet. This is where my disappointment lies. Will probably prime with DME and cross my fingers that bottle secondary gives it a little bit (ala schnieder wiesse) but I was hoping for better results at this point.

Can anyone give me some pointers for next time or detail what they do for a succesful clovy wiezen beer.

Down in the dumps

Borret <_<
 

Weizguy

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Borret said:
Can anyone give me some pointers for next time or detail what they do for a succesful clovy wiezen beer.

Borret <_<
[post="55750"][/post]​
Don't try to control the temp. U will get more esters by fermenting at ambient temp, if this is what U want.

I still have a few bottles of my last Weizen which used that yeast. Would U like me to drop a sample in at the lhbs 4 U to taste? Fermented at about 24 C. Not any good if U don't like banana ester, tho.

I am currently fermenting an American wheat beer with an American Ale yeast (W1056 equivalent), and still getting banana, but no clove (to my taste, anyway). It's @ 22C.
Is this wrong to see these flavours? We don't hear a lot about American wheat beers on this forum, at least since I have been here. I find it quite pleasant and easy to drink.

Seth out 4 now
 

Dunkel_Boy

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As for the problem, I'm clueless, though I thought that wheat yeasts required a very specific temperature to produce the correct flavour profile.

I don't think American wheats have the phenolic/clove/banana flavours (by design), and I assume have about 20IBU more than they should have.
 

Weizguy

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Dunkel_Boy said:
As for the problem, I'm clueless, though I thought that wheat yeasts required a very specific temperature to produce the correct flavour profile.

I don't think American wheats have the phenolic/clove/banana flavours (by design), and I assume have about 20IBU more than they should have.
[post="55761"][/post]​
The American ales all seem to point that way, but the wheat only has about the same IBUs as my Bavarian weizen , but has a little flavour hops ( 1 plug of Willamette + little Amarillo).

Borret,...
Maybe U should prime with Muntons wheat DME and keep the bottles warm after priming.

Seth
 

Dunkel_Boy

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Perhaps closer to 24C would have created more esters.
The yeast apparently likes 18-24C (don't we all?) but I imagine there's a clean-estery profile from the bottom to the top of that range...
 

Borret

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From what I have read the ideal temp for this yeat is about 19-20 so that is whatI aimed for. I have done a wiezen bock in the past that used recultured aventinus yeast brewed ab little higher nad secondaried at ambient temps where I believe it developed the banana and it's quite bananaery but no clove. So I aimed at the lower end to try and achieve more clove.
Will cross my fingers with a warmer bottle ferm to get at least some flavour.

Do you think that the wheat DME for priming will make such a difference or will plain DME suffice. Do both the shops in town sell the muntons? ( I know my closest at toronto has jack), could probably use the morgans liquid wheat instead if you reckon it would make a difference.and it may save me a 45 min trip into town.

But still, someone round here must know how to get clove!

Borret.
 

Gulf Brewery

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Borret

The temperature range is critical if you want to get the correct combination of esters with these yeasts. It just depends on the balance you want. It sounds like you are looking for banana, so I would pitch and maintain in the low 20's and definitely wouldn't cold pitch this one as you want the esters.

Weizguy - The problem with ambient temperature is that is going to vary depending on where you are in the country and what room of the house it is in.

Pedro
 

Dunkel_Boy

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Gulf Brewery said:
Borret

The temperature range is critical if you want to get the correct combination of esters with these yeasts. It just depends on the balance you want. It sounds like you are looking for banana, so I would pitch and maintain in the low 20's and definitely wouldn't cold pitch this one as you want the esters.

Weizguy - The problem with ambient temperature is that is going to vary depending on where you are in the country and what room of the house it is in.

Pedro
[post="55776"][/post]​
And ambient temperature could be perfectly constant...
 

Gulf Brewery

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Dunkel_Boy said:
And ambient temperature could be perfectly constant...
[post="55777"][/post]​
Yep 13C in Tassie and 28C in Cape York. We are trying to help here by specifying the correct range for the yeast and the profile that Borret is looking for.

Pedro
 

Borret

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The other aspect I have read about is pitching and aeration affecting it . I have read about pitching a smaller starter to stress the yeast to give the phenolics which I am after but can't find notes on aeration. I imagine if you pitch small then aeration must be substancial to get enough growth.

Hmmmmm

Borret
 

Dunkel_Boy

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Gulf Brewery said:
Dunkel_Boy said:
And ambient temperature could be perfectly constant...
[post="55777"][/post]​
Yep 13C in Tassie and 28C in Cape York. We are trying to help here by specifying the correct range for the yeast and the profile that Borret is looking for.

Pedro
[post="55778"][/post]​
Let me bow down and display my utmost apologies.
Downstairs holds a constant 20C, and hits 24C in summer, though I'm sure you would agree that it's a pretty constant 13C in Tassie...
That is all I meant, and although it is little help for Borret (I am genuinely sorry for that) I was merely trying to discredit Weizguy (joking!), and by that I mean I was curious about how constant temperature can be detrimental to yeast, but I'll take a guess and say since they are estery beers, it's (possibly) not as critical to maintain a perfect 19.8C for the entire fermentation.
Now, let's move on.
 

Gulf Brewery

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Borret

I suggest you do a beer at 21/22 1st pitching a healthy starter into a well aerated wort. On your next one, lower the pitching rate and see what effect hat has on the beer, while keeping the temperature at 21/22. You might find the esters that are produced because the yeast is stressed are not to your liking.

Cheers
Pedro
 

Borret

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The other info I have found just now discredits the pitching thing (i think). On schneiders website they say that the yeast harvested is 4 times the amount that is pitched. This doesn't seam like a huge amount of growth so there must be a decent quantity to start with.. but that's just my interpretation.

Borret
 

Weizguy

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Fellas,

I was thinking that Borret's ambient should be similar to mine, as we are both (relatively) from Newcastle, give or take 30 km or so. :D

I usually make a starter which is a minimum of 500ml, and sometimes 1.25 litres for a weizen.

An interesting experiment might be to start a batch with a small starter and ferment in a temp-controlled env. Then, when U rack to secondary, pour another batch of cooled wort onto the yeast cake from the primary. This may require room for 2 fermentors in your temp-controlled area.

If you really want phenolics, I could prob sling U a Belgian Wit culture which will give you plenty of phenols at 20C. You could use it alone, or mix with the Weizen yeast.

My apologies to Dunkel_Boy (and others) for oversimplifying the situation by using terms such as "ambient". Spank me, I've been a bad boy...

Borret, PM me if U R interested in the Belgian Wit yeast, or a sample of my Weizen. Do U get your supplies in the Newcastle area, or mail order from Syd (or other)?

Seth :p
 

MAH

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OK, I'm also having a bit of trouble with this yeast. Last Sunday I took the day off from house renovations and mate came over to brew he wanted to make a German Wheat.

Grain bill was 50/50 wheat/pils. It was a multi step mash 44/62/70/76. It was a double decoction to hit the 62 and 70 rests and infusion for mash out. The wort was chilled through a CFWC then put in the fridge to chill down to 12C for pitching. During this the starter was decanted and just over a litre of the new wort was added. By the time of pitching it was bubbling away nicely and then pitched into 19 litres. Aeration was OK but nothing likely using a bubbler. Since then it's been fermenting at 18C (wort temp) to hit the mystical (or maybe mythical) 30C formula of pitch temp + ferment temp.

Tasting a sample, it's fairly nice and clean, but a bt dull on wheat beer characteristics. It's got me stumped.

As a side note, my mate had bought the smack pack from a LHBS that often boasts how fresh their yeast are. When I was culturing it up for him, I noticed they had sold him a pack manufactured 6 months ago.

Cheers
MAH
 

warrenlw63

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I've always had strife with Wyeast 3068. :angry:

Almost to the point that it turns me off making Weizens.

I always pop the pack, make a starter and step it up. I always get the required esters and phenolics from tasting the starters and become very encouraged that this weizen is going to be "the one".

I do what MAH does and use the 30 rule. However the final beer always seem to wind up very bland and muted and lacks the required esters/phenolics.

Next time I do one (it's going to take a lot of convincing) I'm going to pitch and ferment higher just to (hopefully) force the hand of the esters.

Warren -
 

warrenlw63

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Oh, I forgot.

To add to the thread I've also heard that the Whitelabs, I'm not sure if it's WLP300 or WLP380 are supposed to produce the goods in a more respectable fashion. In fact Malt Shovel's Summer Wheat was supposed to have used one of these two.

Obviously can't verify this myself because I've never used Whitelabs before only Wyeast. YMMV

Warren -
 

Weizguy

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warrenlw63 said:
To add to the thread I've also heard that the Whitelabs, I'm not sure if it's WLP300 or WLP380 are supposed to produce the goods in a more respectable fashion. In fact Malt Shovel's Summer Wheat was supposed to have used one of these two.
[post="55835"][/post]​
My lhbs usually deals with Wyeast, but has offered to get me the WhiteLabs yeast that made the JS Summer Wheat. I was quite impressed/interested in the fruity flavours in it.

warrenlw63 said:
I do what MAH does and use the 30 rule. However the final beer always seem to wind up very bland and muted and lacks the required esters/phenolics.
I generally make the mistake of ignoring the 30 rule. I pitch and ferment in the low to mid 20s, and get enough esters/phenolics, with an emphasis on banana.
A short while back, I made an extract Weizen with W3068. It was an 8-day wonder. In fermentor for 5 days (7+ litres of foam/krausen), and in plastic 2 litre bottles for 3 days carbonation. It was almost all consumed on Superbowl Monday (Sunday in the US), and it was superb. Just dumb luck.

Seth :p
 

Borret

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Hi warren,

I know this sounds like a slack thing to say but that's good to hear. I am not alone. I feel you explained perfectly my frustrations. I have tried this yeast on a number of occasions ans had the same result and am ready to give it the heave. Have tipped a whole brew of it not cause it was of, just cause it wasn't worth drinking. Only thing stopping me is the love of the style. Only one I have had that sort of worked was a wiezen bock that I put into secondary before I went away for 10 days last novemeber. So I have no idea what temps it sat at but it was probably warm. It had plenty of banana on my return home but still no phenolics. It's a pleasant beer though. Tasted crap out of primary.
Crossing my finger this will do a similar thing with the wheat DME priming so it is salvagable.

From what I have read the wlp 300 is the same or very similar to the wyeast 3068 we are discussing.

If I crack it and find the holy grail of this yeast somehow I will let you know. No one deserves this anguish.

Cheers Borret
 

warrenlw63

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Yep,

It's very frustrating Borret. You get the impression that the yeast should do all the work but it lets you down. Not a real problem to mash wheat and barley (sometimes).

I've even gone 70% wheat and 30% barley to no avail. I've tried single decoction, step and single infusion mashes to achieve what I'm after.

Think I'm going to throw the rules out the window next time and try Seth's practice of fermenting warmer than what's considered normal.

My other main gripe with fermenting Weizens is the mess they make. IMO to ferment 20 litres you virtually need a 40 litre fermenter. :huh:

Warren -
(I'll get there one day)
 

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