Water Volume To Use For Calculating Salt Additions

[Wolfy]

Simple question:
When calculating brewing-salt additions what volume of water should one use?

Is this somewhat illogical reasoning actually a good idea:
Calculating salt additions based on total liquor volume, then accepting there are salt-losses throughout the system, which means that the salt concentration (in terms of ppm) will be much the same going into the fermenter as was originally calculated.

Other options include:
Mash volume (not including sparge).
Preboil volume.
The final batch volume as it goes into the fermenter.
Or some hybrid of those to stagger additions, some in the mash, some in the kettle each adjusted for the volume at the time.

 

[katzke]

Good question. I guess that answer has to do with why you are making additions.

I BIAB so calculate based on mash volume. I am interested in the effect on the mash as well as yeast health and flavor. I guess if I wanted to I would work out a mash addition and a flavor addition. Boil off only adds a 10 to 15% concentration.

Not having a lab to test the brewing water and what happens when adding grain and hops it is only really a guess as to what the final water chemistry is anyway. I base my additions on results. So far I am happy.

 

[felten]

In terms of calcium you're going to lose some to the grain(bsp says 40-60%), and then some to the kettle trub and in the fermenter (beer stone), and then there is the boil off,so who knows how much ends up in each stage!? Which is probably why it is so hard to find a good rule of thumb to follow, everyone seems to just make it up as they go along. I'm still trying to get my head around it as well

Most of the additions I have seen in recipes are split between mash and boil, but usually just 2g of this 1g of that without and explanation behind them. Personally I will measure my mash pH and if I am worried it is too high I will add some based on the mash liquor volume, as for what ends up in the final product.. no idea. With Melbourne water the way it is you probably can't go too overboard

 

[Screwtop]

Ponder this: If you were to begin with say...Burton water in your HLT (total brewing liquor), how much treated (naturally) water would you be using?

That being said, I treat my mash to achieve correct PH, then add a kettle addition to adjust to target water values to the remainder, calculated using Pre Boil Volume - First Runnings Volume. Can't really say that I'm convinced of any improvement from the kettle addition yet as I have not tried brewing the same beer using only the mash addition for a side by side comparison.

Screwy

 

[Fourstar]

I always do two additions. I used to work out a total water profile acceptable to the beer i was brewing all in one hit but this just became a headache to calculate (and make sure i wasnt screwing up my mash pH. Unfortunatly this process will either compromise your pH or expected final water profile.

Really, you have got to ask yourself why you are making adjustments? Is it for mash correction or for water 'flavour/palate' adjustments? Hey, it mgiht even be for both! I now focus on my mash liquor and achieving the correct Ca concentration and adjusting pH where necessary. The boil addtions focus purely on adjusting the water to suit the beer im brewing. e.g. high SO4 concentratoins for APAs and bitters or low SO4 with some CaCl addtions for beers like a bohemian pilsner (basically enough Ca for yeast health).

Beersmith makes this a really simple exercise todo. Simply punch in your strike water volume and adjust your salts as required for pH etc. Note these down, these are your mash additions. Then adjust the water volume to your expected final*volume in the kettle (including your losses), you will notice your salt concentrations will drop. Here is where you add MORE salts to achieve your dsesired final water profile and do a little math so you know what you are adding to your kettle (minus your strike additons). Once you have made any necessary adjustments, this will be your final water concentration. :icon_cheers:

 

[drsmurto]

I make up my water in advance, ~35L for a 20L batch.

All the brewing salts other than CaCO3 (chalk) will dissolve in water, i add a % of the CaCO3 to the mash as the lower pH will enable it to dissolve and the rest in with the (batch) sparge water.

And i realise that many brewing texts **** this up but it's CaCl2, not CaCl. The latter does not exist.

The figures you see quoted for the chemistry of brewing waters around the world are for the water, not for the final product (beer). So if you take into account losses due to evaporation you are changing the profile significantly.

I've noticed that some people add salts to the kettle - are these additions based on the final batch volume or the pre-boil volume?

 

[Fourstar]

I've noticed that some people add salts to the kettle - are these additions based on the final batch volume or the pre-boil volume?

Mine are for the final batch volume so i can achieve the final concentration I expect/want, not based on traditional brewing water(s).

Oh, sorry about the CaCl2. I usually make a concious effort to add the '2' because i know how irritating it is for ya Dr! :icon_cheers:

 

[katzke]

Mine are for the final batch volume so i can achieve the final concentration I expect/want, not based on traditional brewing water(s).

Oh, sorry about the CaCl2. I usually make a concious effort to add the '2' because i know how irritating it is for ya Dr! :icon_cheers:

Well that will give you a lower concentration then you want. You have to include kettle losses to get a better number.

DrSmurto 10 to 15% water loss in the boil will increase the concentrations some. The reactions in the boil will change them also. Will they be significant? Depends on how you decide what is significant. I am old enough to remember buying resisters with a 10% tolerance. Was taught in school that if a value was within 10% it was OK.

If you are worried about getting a higher accuracy how are you measuring your salts? I measure to the 10th of a grain on my powder scale (more or less). So if I want 100ppm Calcium and I get the measure correct and no Calcium is removed in the reactions that happen when brewing then I may end up with 115ppm. Close enough for home brew.

If a brewer is measuring in grams then I have them beet as a gram has 15.4 + grains in it. If they are dumping in a teaspoon who knows what they get.

 

[drsmurto]

Well that will give you a lower concentration then you want. You have to include kettle losses to get a better number.

DrSmurto… 10 to 15% water loss in the boil will increase the concentrations some. The reactions in the boil will change them also. Will they be significant? Depends on how you decide what is significant. I am old enough to remember buying resisters with a 10% tolerance. Was taught in school that if a value was within 10% it was OK.

If you are worried about getting a higher accuracy how are you measuring your salts? I measure to the 10th of a grain on my powder scale (more or less). So if I want 100ppm Calcium and I get the measure correct and no Calcium is removed in the reactions that happen when brewing then I may end up with 115ppm. Close enough for home brew.

If a brewer is measuring in grams then I have them beet as a gram has 15.4 + grains in it. If they are dumping in a teaspoon who knows what they get.

Each brewing salt has a different grain size........

I am still learning what effects each brewing salt has on the final products. When i started i was adding way too much, particularly CO3 so now have a few sets of waters that are for hoppy, malty, dark and lagers. For me it is more about getting a desired ratio of SO4 to Cl to CO3 whilst keeping the Ca in the 80-120 range for most beers other than lagers.

Other brewers were commenting that my beers were tasting metallic so i have since dropped the MgSO4 additions wound back CO3.

EDIT - added more info

 

[Fourstar]

Well that will give you a lower concentration then you want. You have to include kettle losses to get a better number.

Read my previous post. its exactly how i want it. :icon_cheers:

 

[Scruffy]

Surely you doctor your water before anything i.e. the stuff in your HLT

- if we start with a unit of Burton water and a unit of Burtonized water, and boil/mash/ignite the **** water out of it, you should be left with the same residues.
Shirley if you're just adding a load of Gypsum to make the hops taste of Gypsum, then why the science?

Make all the water you're using into Burton, or Dortmund or whatever to get a feel for the 'authentic taste'...

Indecently and OT, The water from Salt Lake City doesn't have much sodium in it!

 

[katzke]

Each brewing salt has a different grain size........

A bit of confusion. The grain I am using is a unit of weight not the particle size of the material added. In the USA grains are used for measuring powder for reloading rifle and pistol cartridges. Something you may not have to worry about now that you gave up your guns. 15.4 + grains is equal to a gram. So if my math is correct .1 grain is .oo65 grams.

My point is worrying about the final chemistry is not practical for many reasons. The method of measuring water volume and salt additions are just one. The fact that no one I have ever heard of understands all that is happening in the brewing process. This makes all the worry for a home brewer with no lab facilities worthless.

Suggesting that boil off has a major impact on the results is pure conjecture with out understanding all that is happening in the boil.

Adding salts to the mash has advantages. Adding salts to the kettle also has advantages. Do what works for you. Suggest what you do to others and why.

 

[drsmurto]

A bit of confusion. The grain I am using is a unit of weight not the particle size of the material added. In the USA grains are used for measuring powder for reloading rifle and pistol cartridges. Something you may not have to worry about now that you gave up your guns. 15.4 + grains is equal to a gram. So if my math is correct .1 grain is .oo65 – grams.

My point is worrying about the final chemistry is not practical for many reasons. The method of measuring water volume and salt additions are just one. The fact that no one I have ever heard of understands all that is happening in the brewing process. This makes all the worry for a home brewer with no lab facilities worthless.

Suggesting that boil off has a major impact on the results is pure conjecture with out understanding all that is happening in the boil.

Adding salts to the mash has advantages. Adding salts to the kettle also has advantages. Do what works for you. Suggest what you do to others and why.

Ah, i get the grain thing now. Let's not open up the gun debate on a brewing forum.

My point about the boil off is that you are concentrating the solution and hence the concentration of salts go up, nothing more.

And i know very little about water chemistry but i am reading some interesting academic papers/texts that are shedding some light on the topic. At the moment i am keeping it simple and since i am on rainwater, water chemistry has been thrust upon me (self inflicted).

EDIT - grammar

 

[katzke]

And i know very little about water chemistry but i am reading some interesting academic papers/texts that are shedding some light on the topic. At the moment i am keeping it simple and since i am on rainwater, water chemistry has been thrust upon me (self inflicted).

Just about where I am except I think my problem was I do not like Marris Otter. I get comfort in reading that no one really knows what is going on with water. I am sure the big breweries have it dialed in based on tests. Some small breweries have no more idea then I have.

I have been playing with additions and have found some interesting things. The big one being that my delicate digestion does not like the acid from wheat beers. I have been treating them as a much darker beer then the charts and programs would suggest. Not going into details till I get it nailed down.

Yes the boil loss will impact the final chemical makeup of the wort. Not sure how as boiling hard water precipitates something? Other brewing reactions reduce things as well. That is why I only worry about what I do to my mash water. I have read info on adding to the boil and it has merits as well. Just not the way I chose to work. I am not ready to post what I do as I am not sure if it would work for others.

My beers have improved and I can not say why. I can say I am not interested in going back to straight tap water.

 

[Wolfy]

Surely you doctor your water before anything i.e. the stuff in your HLT

- if we start with a unit of Burton water and a unit of Burtonized water, and boil/mash/ignite the **** water out of it, you should be left with the same residues.
Shirley if you're just adding a load of Gypsum to make the hops taste of Gypsum, then why the science?

Make all the water you're using into Burton, or Dortmund or whatever to get a feel for the 'authentic taste'...

If I was trying to strictly emulate a specific water profile that would be the logical thing to do.

However as Fourstar suggested, I'm more looking at getting the the final concentration of various salts/ions 'correct' based on the type of beer that I'm brewing, rather than building a water profile based on a location's traditional water profile. Firstly I want to ensure that the essential components are supplied, and secondly to balance the additions (Chloride to Sulphate) as appropriate for the type of beer I'm making.

 

[Fourstar]

However as Fourstar suggested, I'm more looking at getting the the final concentration of various salts/ions 'correct' based on the type of beer that I'm brewing, rather than building a water profile based on a location's traditional water profile. Firstly I want to ensure that the essential components are supplied, and secondly to balance the additions (Chloride to Sulphate) as appropriate for the type of beer I'm making.

Hit the nail on the head Wolfy. Thats what i practise for those purposes you describe. from the information i have read, the effect you have on adjusting your brewing water in the kettle that will be detrimental is slim to none. The salts readily dissolve at the lower pH and during the boil. If you avoid adding carbonates to the boil (no reason why you would want to) the worst thing that can happen is you lower your pH that much your hop utilisation goes out of whack which again is still quite slim.

The benifits of adding calcium with SO4 or Cl to the boil outweighs the headaches of having todo the balancing act on my whole water profile for every new mash i do as a whole single additon of salts.

I can happily say my house beer character which is usually hop focused pale ales, English or American and typically with calcium hard water (100-150ppm~) is more to my palate and the hop profile along with malt, has improved 10 fold since adjusting my water.

It could be that i am becoming a better brewer or better recipe formulation? i dont think its coincidental and most of my recipes look quite similiar to 2 years ago.

One thing i can say for sure was the immediate difference i noticed with very hoppy beers (around 100g in 23L batches) and the clean hop character compared to pervious 'muddy' hops.