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Wanted - Simple Kit-based Lager For A Xxxx Fan

Discussion in 'General Brewing Techniques' started by jakub76, 1/8/10.

 

  1. jakub76

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    Posted 1/8/10
    Ok so I've almost convinced my brother to get into homebrew. He's real close I can feel it. He has no interest in making it complicated, in fact discussions of my processes, successes and failures have probably scared him off a bit. He has sampled a lot of different styles of beer on a few different continents but it seems that after a long day's work in Alice Springs he like best to come home to a cold XXXX bitter.

    I would like to come up with a decent and fairly simple kit-based recipe for him that will satisfy his tastes. So far I like BribieG's idea of starting with a Cooper's lager kit and building up from there. As he's a fan of XXXX I thought something like this...
    Cooper's Lager Kit
    1.5kg Light DME
    500g sugar
    25g Cluster Hops
    Boil hops with sugar in 5L water for 60 minutes then dissolve DME & tin, top up to 22L with ice-cold water and pitch dried lager yeast. I've never used a dried lager yeast but the only brew I tasted that used S-23 had HEAPS of clovey phenolics. It wasn't a bad beer, spicey and interesting, but not the clean lager I am chasing here. I've already convinced him that temperature controlled fermentation is critical and that he should get his stores up initially with ales - probably some big flavoured hoppy ones - before he starts lager brewing.
    I'd be interested to hear your thoughts and suggestions.
    Cheers
     
  2. bum

    Not entitled to an opinion

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    Posted 1/8/10
    As you point out a lager yeast may not be the simplest introduction so I'd seriously consider using a clean ale yeast run cool. US05 being an obvious selection for mine, but far from the only one, the kit yeast should be fine run cool too, to be honest. I'm wondering if 1.5kg of LDME might leave a bit too much body for style even with the sugar. I'd think about subbing some out for dex. I'd also use the LDME for the hop boil wort rather than the sugar. Probably more for superstitious reasons than anything else - never seen anyone else say they do that and sometimes I just assume there's good reasons for things like that. I've never used cluster but I'd imagine that an hour boil on top of the kit might make it more bitter than the original(? - I know it is called 'Bitter' but I've had it (leave me alone, it was in a bloody domestic airport terminal) and it is no tongue scraper). I'd also use a little late to give it a bit of the same aroma of XXXX.

    [EDIT: Come to think of it your OG might be a wee bit high for something approximating a clone too - although I'm sure none of us minded that on our first (or possibly even most recent) brew.]
     
  3. Tyred

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    Posted 1/8/10
    Checked on a couple of LHBS sites to see if there were any clone style brews and found this.

    XXXX Bitter

    * Morgan's Queenslander Bitter
    * 1kg Dextrose
    * 12g Cluster Finishing Hops
    * (FIN.S.G. = 1.010)

    No reference to yeast so I would assume that it would be the kit yeast (514 ?). If kept cool then that should be fine as bum said.
     
  4. Acasta

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    Posted 1/8/10
    Yeah, too much additional sugar, try 1kg LDME and 300g Sugar with the kit and also +1 to bum's suggestion of tacking the boil back a bit, as the can's are already bittered, so for aroma try a hop tea, or a quick 10min boil with the DME, depending on how complicated your brother is willing to go.
     
  5. Ducatiboy stu

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    Posted 1/8/10
    Back to the OP


    Boiling hops in sugar or water with achieve NOTHING..

    If you want to add hop flavour or aroma to a ANY beer, you need to boil the hops in a malt solution... the malt will bring out the oils in the hops

    Best thing to do is take out 1ltr from the ferm, get it up to boil, add the hops, boil for 5-10 mins, then add to the ferm... dont even strain it, add the lot.






    Enjoy... oh... and dont be shy in asking questions
     
  6. Acasta

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    Posted 1/8/10
    Hmmmm.........
     
  7. Ducatiboy stu

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    Posted 1/8/10
    yep... it wont




    Hops really need to be boiled in a malt solution...

    The Malt solution is essential in extracting the oils from the hops for brewing

    :)
     
  8. Acasta

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    Posted 1/8/10
    Not to challenge or fight you, because im still an amature. But i would imagine that boiling hops would still extract oils no matter what solution their in.
    Anyways, thats :icon_offtopic: haha
     
  9. rendo

    WTF

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    Posted 1/8/10
    I'm faffing about in Beersmith now for ya mate....have u got beersmith....worth every cent...like $20, less than one brew and its GOLD!!!

    will post my results/assumptions soon

    rendo

     
  10. bum

    Not entitled to an opinion

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    Posted 1/8/10

    Well, bitterness will be still be readily extracted but as mentioned above I'm more than happy to agree with you that malt would be best.
     
  11. Acasta

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    Posted 1/8/10
    Ahh kk, out of interest, why is that? I do like the science behind it all.
     
  12. rendo

    WTF

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    Posted 1/8/10
    Amatures can be right....and in this instance, I am about 99.99999% certain u are bang on!!!

    rendo (a rank amature)

     
  13. Ducatiboy stu

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    Posted 1/8/10
    woohhooo


    Bum

    :)


    An agrrement
     
  14. Acasta

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    Posted 1/8/10
    Thanks rendo! haha, i just figured that extraction is done by heating the oil into the liquid, im not sure of the difference between wort and water other then sugar.
     
  15. Ducatiboy stu

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    Posted 1/8/10
    Ok

    Someone is going to give the scientific result


    BUT

    It is well known that hop extraction is higher when used with malt based mediums

    Malt has different properties when boiled with Hops.... that why we boil hops in malt, not suagr












    Note... Duke has had a few bourbons and cant find the AHB links that relate to hop usage with mallt :icon_cheers:
     
  16. Bribie G

    Adjunct Professor

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    Posted 1/8/10
    I obtain fantastic hop flavour and aroma using late hops prepared in a coffee plunger, with just boiling water. However I concede that a more authentic result would be to use boiling wort (as happens in a hop back) in the coffee plunger and I'm saving wort for that purpose.

    Also - on topic - as a regular XXXX heavy drinker ( I live a few doors away from the Bribie Pub and sink a few schooners at the pokies every couple of weeks) the cluster thing is a bit of a PR thing. There is a wee bit of bitterness there but you can't really get an aroma - it's more light malt flavour driven. The finishing teabag of 12g is probably even over the top for a XXXX attempt.
     
  17. rendo

    WTF

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    Posted 1/8/10
    hey Jakub,

    Firstly temp control FOR SURE. However we are in the cooler months so MAYBE you could get away without it. I LOVE lager yeast, but my tip is in this instance, dont use it. Really it should be brewed for a longer period, temp control is ESSENTIAL, lagering period is important, takes longer to mature in bottle...etc you see my point? Personally I LOVE lager yeasts, but for a first time brew for your bro, go US-05. Will give u a crisp clean ferment that showcases the cluster and you'd almost swear is a lager...its a great yeast to make fake lagers that no one is going to know the difference, except experienced brewers. Will be even better if you have temp control! 18deg for us05. Dont use a heater :)

    I've brewed many times with cluster. Its great. I have gone away from it at the moment cause I am experimenting with other hops, anyway, its good stuff. What you want for XXXX style. 25g for 60mins sounds a bit much...gives you 40+IBU, maybe a bit much. From what I could find XXXX is about 30-35IBU, with most searches coming up in the mid 30's (IBU). Recommendation below

    1.5kg of LDME.....too much (my view) puts your OG too high and as bum says will give more booty than required. 1kg looks good, maybe sub out 200g-300g of wheat malt powder for better head rentention

    As far as what kit...well i have a fetish for Coopers Canadian Blonde, its a great kit, light in colour, about 20IBU, very neutral taste making it a great base for a brewer to experiment with and change things etc. I have done all sorts of beers with this as a base. hard to go wrong with this kit.

    Anyway...hopefully you can decipher what the below output from beersmith says below...I'll add comments

    BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
    Recipe: XXXX Bitter
    Brewer: Rendo
    Asst Brewer: Dreamin'

    Recipe Specifications
    --------------------------
    Batch Size: 23.00 L
    Estimated OG: 1.046 SG {I reckon this is about right}
    Estimated Color: 8.3 EBC {sounds/looks about close enough...could find ref to XXXX ebc}
    Estimated IBU: 34.0 IBU {this will be bitter enough, you dont want to scare him first up and go higher}
    Boil Time: 60 Minutes

    Ingredients:
    ------------
    Amount Item Type % or IBU
    1.00 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 31.25 % (LDME)
    1.70 kg Coopers Canadian Blonde (4.5 EBC) Extract 53.13 %
    20.00 gm Cluster [7.00 %] (60 min) Hops 15.2 IBU (20g Cluster, 60min boil)
    0.50 kg Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (2.0 EBC) Sugar 15.63 % (500g sugar...good addition)
    1 Pkgs SafAle American Ale (DCL Yeast #S-05) Yeast-Ale use US-05, lager yeast will be too much fussing for a first go


    i hope that helps....let us all know what you decide to do and more importantly, how the beer turns out!!

    Cheers!!
    Rendo



     
  18. jakub76

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    Posted 1/8/10
    Well I figured the sugar solution would be alright but it's just as easy to use DME. So what I've gathered so far is to maybe back off the bittering and OG. My brother likes a bit of bitterness and as I recall Coopers Lager is pretty light-on.

    Perhaps 15g Cluster for 60min + 10g for 20min - boiled in 5 litres with 500g of DME. Then dilute another 500g dme, 500g Dex and the coopers lager tin. I'm considering US-05 at this point too, easier ferment, quicker turn-around and I remember how impressed I was with it when I first started using it. My brother's palette will still take time to develop, maybe no need to get into lagers straight away.

    My other problem is that I'm a little reluctant to try it out before passing on the recipe. I know I should (will) but I don't look forward to having 22 litres of a simple kit-based XXXX clone to chug through...it's going to mess with my own brewing schedule - so many beers so little time.

    rendo, I use BrewPal on the iPhone but it's difficult to account for the kit.

    EDIT: Thanks for the recipe and research rendo. You must have typed all that quicker than my post...
     
  19. rendo

    WTF

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    No worries mate! Let us know
    Yeah, with beersmith you can accomodate the kits. U just need to find the colour(EBC) and the IBU, usually the manufacturers will tell you, then you can whack it into beersmith. Easy done.

    Cheers

     
  20. Acasta

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    Posted 1/8/10
    Yeah true, the taste of xxxx wont come from the hops, but at least the bittering will cover the kit taste.

    Sounds good, still dunno about the 60 min boil but give it a shot anyways!

    And hey, if u make the 23L and he likes it, theres always a profit to be made, then when he finds out cost price it'll be even more appealing to brew! haha
     

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