Want to hear about ways to work with 10A outlet limits

[philistine]

Hey Dudes,

Just wanna start with a big thanks to all the help and advice you guys have given me so far !
Im fully aware that my knowledge and skills in the electrics/sorcery department (or lack thereof) is leading to questions that may have some of you facepalming on my behalf! Really appreciate your patience!
I've been taking a few pics as I weld up the stand (almost finished) and Ive built a cool stainless steel HEX. So eventually I'll show off some pics somewhere for any who might be interested... At least that way it proves that Im not completely useless! ;-)

So anyway, I know i've kinda asked some of these questions before, but now I wanna nut this part out specifically - Im back at it this wknd with a few more design issues to iron out, so here goes...

I've been weighing up the options for my control panel's power supply.
To sum up, its a HERMS rig that uses a 4th vessel with a separate element as a HEX. It will run:
1 x 2400w birko urn
1 x 2000w HEX
2 x pumps (25w each)
plus some various super low wattage stuff like pid's, indicator lights etc.

Basically, I see two options when it comes to power supply

First -and most preferable- would be to be able to run both elements at the same time. This would lead to a total power draw of just under 20A.
I've discovered that I have a dedicated circuit in our house that should comfortably accomodate this (yet to confirm) however Im still limited by 10A outlets.
So, Im thinking of installing 2 x power inlets in the control panel. This would effectively split it in half (electrically). One inlet would supply the birko urn and its PID, the other would supply the pumps, the HEX and it's own PID. Both circuits would be isolated from each other.
Both 'halves' of the power supply required would come from the same powerpoint, but it would be plugged in twice, with two separate power cords. (does that make sense?)
Has anyone done it this way?
Would it work?
Keen to see or hear about any examples...
Is it a stupid idea?
I've been searching and reading a lot of stuff on the forum and I did find some old posts from QldKev from a few years back who was also building a controller with 10A limits - so if youi're reading this man, Id love to hear how you worked around it.
Obviously, it would only be feasible if the circuit wiring in the house can tolerate it comfortably, but me and the sparky are pretty sure its ok (like I said, yet to confirm)

The other option (which kinda sucks) is to simply have 1 x power inlet for the entire controller and use a 3 way selector switch to choose between which element is running - ensuring that only one is in use at any given point.

Thanks in advance guys

 

[lmullan]

Assuming that you have supply circuitry to the 10A socket that can handle 20A (your sparky seems to think so?) would it not be a lot less work to simply get your sparky to throw a 20A single power outlet on there? That way you don't have any of these issues and cost would be relatively insignificant.

If the supply circuit can't handle having a 20A outlet added, maxing out 2x10A outlets will be just as dangerous.

 

[malt junkie]

I split my power over 2 separate circuits with a brauclone I built 2x 2400w elements 1x 25w pump and control. Yes one of those only gets an element so I'm probably pulling 11 amps one one. Never had a problem .... well except if someone uses the microwave while I'm brewing.

 

[philistine]

Assuming that you have supply circuitry to the 10A socket that can handle 20A (your sparky seems to think so?) would it not be a lot less work to simply get your sparky to throw a 20A single power outlet on there? That way you don't have any of these issues and cost would be relatively insignificant.

If the supply circuit can't handle having a 20A outlet added, maxing out 2x10A outlets will be just as dangerous.

Believe me, Ive thought about this back and forth over and over and over. The answer is yes- Id love to do it that way and Ive looked into it. The thing is, Im renting and it would also mean that if I moved house, Id have to either rebuild my control panel or go through the whole process again without even being sure that my next place will be capable of supporting a 20A draw on one circuit.
If I do it with a 2 x 10A split in the supply, it means I could still use two separate supply circuits if I have to.

I split my power over 2 separate circuits with a brauclone I built 2x 2400w elements 1x 25w pump and control. Yes one of those only gets an element so I'm probably pulling 11 amps one one. Never had a problem .... well except if someone uses the microwave while I'm brewing.

So, your control panel has two inlets then? With the wiring inside isolated and separated from each other?

 

[malt junkie]

So my controller is an original Matho's controller,(note this later became Ardbir and is available in 7 languages at last count) I also have one of laels kits, it fires two SSR's each with it's own supply. Note all earths connect, but otherwise the power circuits remain separate. I'm building the next generation of this with support for HLT and Wifi interface; to do this I will either need a selection switch or a third power circuit. See how help full the neighbours are.

cheers

Mike

 

[Gloveski]

Mate check your switchboard you will ever have 1 16a breaker or 2 16a breakers most likely labeled power . These are the breakers for your PowerPoint circuits. You mention both halves of the supply will come from the one PowerPoint . Basically you are not splitting anything as all the power draw is still on the 1 circuit . If you have two circuits you need to find two PowerPoint s 1 on each circuit and use these to power your set up . If you have 1 circuit only your out of luck . If you have a sparky mate he can quickly check this out for you

 

[Gloveski]

And I can't stress this enough get a local sparky to guide you , I'm sure they will have a quick look if you throw a few beers there way . Seen way to many times what can happen when people wire up things they don't understand

 

[Benn]

If it were me I'd be inclined to think of where I might be moving to next.
If you reckon you'll be renting for a while then perhaps a more versatile system would be best, that way you *should* be able to wheel the bench into the next joint and start brewing straight away unless the next house has even less sufficient power options than your current place. Unlikely.
To reduce time and streamline the brew day I'd try and find a work around to facilitate both elements running simultaneously rather than the 3 way switch option.
It sounds like the place your currently renting is pretty old, ...maybe your sparky mate could wire in an additional GPO even if it's close to your SB..., you could then run a heavy duty extension lead to one of the two inputs on your control panel the other being fed from an existing circuit in your house and you're off and brewing.
If you move into your own house next then in time you could invest in a dedicated circuit to your brewery location and with minimal alterations to your control panel be able to plug one lead in to a dedicated outlet and not have to worry about tripping the power.
Good luck with it man, hope you can find a workable solution.
Cheers,

 

[Gloveski]

Yep spot on Benn if he has two gpo circuits he will be fine . Just wire to suit and a couple of heavy duty ext leads and he is away

 

[philistine]

Yeah, originally I was thinking of using two powerpoints that run on different circuits, which I can still do and probably will still so.
All our circuits are rated at 15A, so this will be the fall-back safest option.
But then we (sparky and I) discovered that there was a separate circuit that has its own meter (We have 2) - it was originally used to run a heat bank. We have yet to confirm, but we think that the previous owner then repurposed that circuit to run a spa heater and pump set up out on our deck.
This circuit has a 45A fuse, although the actual supply wiring to the house is only 6mm - which still *technically* gives me 32A capability.
We're 99% sure that the circuit the spa runs from can handle 20A (it has a 2400w heater, plus pumps, plus lights)

In any event if I build the rig the way I want to, using both elements without switching, the period during which both would be running simutaneously would most likely be no longer than say 10 minutes or so. The simultaneous running time would only be the overlap between heating the sparge water from strike temp to mash out temp (so a max increase of around 10c) during the last 10-15 minutes of mashing while still re-circulating thru the HEX - which may not even be using its element anyway and if it is, it'll only be the periodic SSR controlled flashing on/off to maintain the mash temp.

So in other words, Ill heat my entire water 36 odd litre volume in the birko at the very start to hit strike temp of around 75c (before pouring into MLT and grain). Ill pour off enough to mash, leaving the remaning water sitting in the urn during the mash. i'll insulate the birko, so anticipate no more than say 5c temp loss during the mash. Then, if things go according to plan, Ill only need to heat it up from around 70c and bring it up to 80c for mash out.

 

[philistine]

Mate check your switchboard you will ever have 1 16a breaker or 2 16a breakers most likely labeled power . These are the breakers for your PowerPoint circuits. You mention both halves of the supply will come from the one PowerPoint . Basically you are not splitting anything as all the power draw is still on the 1 circuit . If you have two circuits you need to find two PowerPoint s 1 on each circuit and use these to power your set up . If you have 1 circuit only your out of luck . If you have a sparky mate he can quickly check this out for you

yeah I understand that, maybe the way I explained it made it seem otherwise.
the "splitting" only occurs inside the control panel and on the supply leads. 15A and 20A leads have different plugs and will not fit into a standard 10A outlet - but yeah I get that I'll still be pulling the same amperage from the same household circuit.

 

[philistine]

And also - when we buy a place, Im going full hog 3phase power (need it for workshop machinery anyway)

 

[Gloveski]

All good mate hope you get it sorted , good to see you got your sparky mate involved

 

[Camo6]

Be aware that if your power circuit is on one of those rewirable ceramic fuses as detailed in one of your other threads, it might not be using the right current rated fuse wire. Very common practice for tenants to up the wire size to 'fix' blowing fuses. Do yourself a favour and get some more plug in circuit breakers like the others shown in your pic. In fact, depending on the regs in your state, your sparky mate shouldn't do any work on that installation without upgrading the circuit protection.

 

[malt junkie]

Be aware that if your power circuit is on one of those rewirable ceramic fuses as detailed in one of your other threads, it might not be using the right current rated fuse wire. Very common practice for tenants to up the wire size to 'fix' blowing fuses. Do yourself a favour and get some more plug in circuit breakers like the others shown in your pic. In fact, depending on the regs in your state, your sparky mate shouldn't do any work on that installation without upgrading the circuit protection.

Dead set on the money!

or just plain dead

I know well my CB's(circuit breakers ) and GFC (ground fault circuit) work and work well. Mistakes and accidents happen that's life. don't end it cutting corners.

MJ/MB

 

[TwoCrows]

Here is an option to use more than one 10 amp circuit to control your needs.

Use independent control panels on separate power circuits.



You can use in different area's or on Hlt / Mash / Hex / Rim / Boil / Timer.

 

[TwoCrows]

This is an easy method as you don't need to use a large amperage feeds and then split it up to run your devices. Just use the power to run the PID and element directly from 10 amp gpo.

 

[philistine]

Be aware that if your power circuit is on one of those rewirable ceramic fuses as detailed in one of your other threads, it might not be using the right current rated fuse wire. Very common practice for tenants to up the wire size to 'fix' blowing fuses. Do yourself a favour and get some more plug in circuit breakers like the others shown in your pic. In fact, depending on the regs in your state, your sparky mate shouldn't do any work on that installation without upgrading the circuit protection.

Yep, he's on to it. He's said pretty much exactly what you said to the landlords and
[edit] ill correct my swearing and rephrase - and they're looking in to it

Meanwhile, ill just use two different powerpoints [emoji41]

 

[Quokka42]

I don't want to recommend anything unsafe or illegal, but there is a workable solution to your problem without calling in an electrician (who won't necessarily know what he is doing anyway.) Your "10A" circuits are usually wired with wire that can handle a lot more safely if it is not too old, and the fuse shouldn't actually blow with that load - but let's protect your family:

Preferably when the rest of the family is out so you don't upset them. One at a time, kill the main switch, remove a fuse, then run around the house with a light or something and find out which power points don't work. You should be able to find at least two circuits you can work with. If you need to, buy one of the outdoor striped extensions from Bunnings or whatever (the insulation is better and you will be dealing with heat and water.) You'll probably have to set a few clocks and things before SWMBO gets home and check your smoke alarms, but everyone will be safe.

[I worked as an "associate engineer" in the power industry for many years and the worst wiring mistakes I saw were by licenced electricians, who are also the most often electrocuted. Much better to be safe and legal than just legal.]

 

[Camo6]

I don't want to recommend anything unsafe or illegal, but there is a workable solution to your problem without calling in an electrician (who won't necessarily know what he is doing anyway.) Your "10A" circuits are usually wired with wire that can handle a lot more safely if it is not too old, and the fuse shouldn't actually blow with that load - but let's protect your family:

Preferably when the rest of the family is out so you don't upset them. One at a time, kill the main switch, remove a fuse, then run around the house with a light or something and find out which power points don't work. You should be able to find at least two circuits you can work with. If you need to, buy one of the outdoor striped extensions from Bunnings or whatever (the insulation is better and you will be dealing with heat and water.) You'll probably have to set a few clocks and things before SWMBO gets home and check your smoke alarms, but everyone will be safe.

[I worked as an "associate engineer" in the power industry for many years and the worst wiring mistakes I saw were by licenced electricians, who are also the most often electrocuted. Much better to be safe and legal than just legal.]

No way you can make recommendations without knowledge of the installation. There's no way of knowing what cable is in use or how it's ran or whose worked on it previously. That advice is unsafe.

If the op draws 20A through 15A fuse wire it will eventually blow. Same as if the op comes comes in contact with live parts - it will eventually blow. While the plug in CBs are still not as safe as an RCD, if your FLI is low enough they'll trip a lot quicker than a fuse will.

As for what you've seen in the industry, while there might be some pretty average electricians out there, the worst incidences are always from the unlicensed or DIYers. Seen plenty of photos of poor practice in homes where the homeowner states "my husband was an engineer!"