Urn power - electrical safety question pls

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Yuz

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Hey Brewers,

Just recently purchased a new Urn for BIAB, it's advertised as 2,500W but the manual states it's 3,000W - which would be over the limit for a typical residential 10Amp outlet.

So, I went to check and measured element's resistance @ the plug end, which is around 17Ohm, meaning the actual power of the unit is 3,400W!

Is it safe? Doesn't have the CE nor Aus "Tick" Electrical Compliance Mark or any other certification. Attempting to read the "Manual" I get brain zaps - it's sort of in English but not quite...




Cheers!
 

wide eyed and legless

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Yep, does look like you will need a 15 amp socket. Though whoever you got it through has to be commended for their honesty, no bogus tick of approval or bogus approval number.
 

Yuz

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I've contacted the seller to confirm these details - false advertising aside, this is dangerous even if it seems to be a reasonable brand (going by their stock pots and brew pots anyway).
 

Brewno Marz

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Why would they sell a 3kW unit as 2.5kW? It doesn’t make sense. Even at 2.5kW it would be over the limit for a residential 10 A circuit (draw would be 11A). Sounds a bit dubious. Anyway, does it have a 15 A plug (with the bigger earth) and was this stated in the description?

Also, 17 Ohm at 230V works out to about 3.1kW, so with measurement error and manufacturing tolerances the stated 3.0kW in the manual sounds right (not sure how you got 3.4kW).

Geoff
 

Yuz

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Why would they sell a 3kW unit as 2.5kW? It doesn’t make sense. Even at 2.5kW it would be over the limit for a residential 10 A circuit (draw would be 11A). Sounds a bit dubious. Anyway, does it have a 15 A plug (with the bigger earth) and was this stated in the description?

Also, 17 Ohm at 230V works out to about 3.1kW, so with measurement error and manufacturing tolerances the stated 3.0kW in the manual sounds right (not sure how you got 3.4kW).

Geoff
I'm puzzled as well, hence this post... 16.8Ohm @ 240VAC = 3.43kW = 14.3A current draw @ the socket, +/-
The plug itself is rated @ 10Amp. Chinese miracles?
 

Lionman

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The resistance may increase under load or as it heats up?

I'd try it, just monitor the temp fo that plug, that's likely most worrying part.
 

Pookie

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Yes, the resistance will most definitely increase with increase in temperature, however at turn on the resistance will be what you measured, so the initial current drawn would be 16.3 amps and it would decrease fairly quickly with time. I'm a bit rusty with electrical theory, but I would expect the 10 Amp circuit breaker to trip with that sort of overload.
 

mischa6262

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Hey Brewers,

Just recently purchased a new Urn for BIAB, it's advertised as 2,500W but the manual states it's 3,000W - which would be over the limit for a typical residential 10Amp outlet.

So, I went to check and measured element's resistance @ the plug end, which is around 17Ohm, meaning the actual power of the unit is 3,400W!

Is it safe? Doesn't have the CE nor Aus "Tick" Electrical Compliance Mark or any other certification. Attempting to read the "Manual" I get brain zaps - it's sort of in English but not quite...




Cheers!
I'd be saying no its not safe at all, a 10 amp outlet will only be protected by a 16 amp breaker, BUT, the cable size (and in particular the earth cable) in the circuit wont be large enough to long term carry the current. we come across this all the time at work people filing down earth pins to fit 15 amp plugs into 10 amp outlets - we chop them off every time. At 3400 watts (thats 14.16amps) needs a min 15 amp circuit - but that's just my 2 bobs worth
 
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You will find the lead and plug will get very hot quite quickly, if it doesn't trip your circuit board out first. I bought a Crown urn for this purpose, and even after an hour of vigorous boiling, the plug and lead is fairly warm to touch, but can be held for as long as you like. I'd be nervous if yours is drawing that sort of load, and unless it is bigger than a 40l unit, you wouldn't need more than the 2400w to do the job. Mine will do a great rolling boil at 2400w. Besides, I like to support Aussie manufactured product when it is available. (No, I am not connected in any way to Crown, but it provides me with a great hobby and lasting happiness).
 

Yuz

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You will find the lead and plug will get very hot quite quickly, if it doesn't trip your circuit board out first. I bought a Crown urn for this purpose, and even after an hour of vigorous boiling, the plug and lead is fairly warm to touch, but can be held for as long as you like. I'd be nervous if yours is drawing that sort of load, and unless it is bigger than a 40l unit, you wouldn't need more than the 2400w to do the job. Mine will do a great rolling boil at 2400w. Besides, I like to support Aussie manufactured product when it is available. (No, I am not connected in any way to Crown, but it provides me with a great hobby and lasting happiness).
If I had the cash for Crown or Birko, I wouldn't hesitate...
The power plug is rated @ 10Amp, and the cord itself is quite thick but this is the specs from the manual:

And here's the response from the seller: "we will return the product to our supplier and ask them to send us the right user manual and sticker on the product. The factory might send us the USA product." - a bit strange considering US have 120V mains?
 

Pokey

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If I had the cash for Crown or Birko, I wouldn't hesitate...
The power plug is rated @ 10Amp, and the cord itself is quite thick but this is the specs from the manual:

And here's the response from the seller: "we will return the product to our supplier and ask them to send us the right user manual and sticker on the product. The factory might send us the USA product." - a bit strange considering US have 120V mains?
The US also have 220 volt they use on bigger appliances, e.g stoves. They run on 60Hz though.
 

mischa6262

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If I had the cash for Crown or Birko, I wouldn't hesitate...
The power plug is rated @ 10Amp, and the cord itself is quite thick but this is the specs from the manual:

And here's the response from the seller: "we will return the product to our supplier and ask them to send us the right user manual and sticker on the product. The factory might send us the USA product." - a bit strange considering US have 120V mains?
it still doesnt take away from the fact that our buildings are wired normally for 10 amp circuits, and are normally protected by 16 amp breakers :) them saying they will change the sticker is bs in my opinion might be ok today but in the event it all goes awry then the shit really hits the fan - but hey its just my 2 cents worth, if it was me i wouldnt be using it
 

Bushbear

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it still doesnt take away from the fact that our buildings are wired normally for 10 amp circuits, and are normally protected by 16 amp breakers :) them saying they will change the sticker is bs in my opinion might be ok today but in the event it all goes awry then the shit really hits the fan - but hey its just my 2 cents worth, if it was me i wouldnt be using it
Just along the lines from mischa6262 the House / Contents insurance could be wiped in the event of a fire, The house wiring is rated for 10A load but protected by 16Amp breakers but the power point is only rated for 10Amps and they work by a set of contacts just pressing along the side of the power plugs prongs and they do heat up inide the GPO melting the plug. Just another thought to think about.
 

Yuz

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Researching, I found this: "Any device or wiring system which allows the use of a 15a designated device on a 10a circuit is illegal and against Australian wiring standards. The earth protection may not be able to conduct the extra currents produced which in the event of a fault could result in serious injury or death."

I'm not risking it. As per below, the element is stamped as 3000W @ 220V and the plug supplied is rated @10Amp. Yeah, sure a new "sticker" will fix this... Dodgy as, it's going back. Will wait to save up and get a Crown or Birko.

Plus, another note on this seller: on their eBay page they state the unit is covered by a 12 months RTB warranty but in the small print in the "manual" it only mentions 3 months. Shonky shits.
 

mischa6262

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totally illegal, and they should be reported for selling illegal electrical items as such.
FYI An easy calculation when you want to know is 3000/240 = 12.5 Amps so legally cannot be put on a 10 amp plug - simple (watts divided by the voltage gives you the maximum current)
 

koshari

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Agree with most of the comments regarding this being dodgy. Just to correct mischas beleif of the earthing conductor requiring to take an overload current, this isnt strictly true, the earth is to protect against instantaneous short curcuit. This is why the fault loop impedence check is so critical. Its also why you are allowed to run an earth cable smaller than the supply cable. in other words the protection device should clear the instantaneous fault before the earthing conductor can heat up and fuse.
 

Lionman

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10A sockets and 15A sockets internals are usually identical apart from the size of the earth slot pin. At least all the ones I have seen are.

10A sockets are overengineered enough that manufacturers do not need to design and make a whole different design for a socket that sells in much smaller numbers.

Also, circuit breakers do not trip straight away if you push them slightly past their rated current. They are designed so that the closer the load is to the rating, the longer the lag before they trip. This is to prevent nuisance tripping if you run multiple high loads on a single circuit for a short period of time. If there is a fault though and an extreme current is drawn, then it will trip much faster. They are not as sensitive as RCD though which will trip nearly instantly but only where there is a fault to earth.

Depending on how quickly the resistance of the element drops as it heats up it may not be that big of an issue.

It is a very dodgy product though, much like the 50L guten that pulls 12.5A through a 10A plug.
 

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