Underletting and dough balls

[Adr_0]

So I've seen a few places where underletting is recommended to avoid doughballs. My last three batches or so I've done this, and in particular the last two have been much lower efficiency than I'd hoped. I do a LODO technique where I crack under CO2 purge into a BIAB bag, add the bag and purge the mash tun then seal everything up. My Strike water is typically 60-62°C to get a 56-57 mash.

I have recently installed a new sparge distribution manifold which should do a fairly good job, but I wondered if I was getting preferential flow into the middle. Tasting the mash in a few places around the top layer had zero sweetness and was just gristy/cereally so I was happy with the conversion and sparging.

My understanding with dough-balls was that different grains will have different gelatinisation temperatures, so a hydration step (35°C) can prevent this. I mashed in at 58 (target was 56-57) which I thought would be below the gelatinisation temperature, and did a nice gentle underlet. I'm guessing that lack of air in the malt, perhaps some compression and being above that gelatinisation temperature - though I thought I'd be below - has caused the below:


So, the moral of the story is that underletting is no preventative for dough-balls - still gotta do a check and break anything up in the dough-in.

 

[warra48]

You sure you mash at 56-57ºC ? Seems awfully low to me. Or is this just the first stage of a step mash? Consensus seems to be that 65-66ºC is a happy spot for a single infusion mash.

I don't underlet, just fill the mash tun with about half my strike water, then dump in the grain and stir. I add more water while stirring until I reach my mash temperature. Never have an issue with dough balls.
I run off and batch sparge via a manifold. Always get over 90% extraction efficiency.

 

[Adr_0]

You sure you mash at 56-57ºC ? Seems awfully low to me. Or is this just the first stage of a step mash?

Consensus seems to be that 65-66ºC is a happy spot for a single infusion mash.

I typically do a protein rest for 10min at that temp,which is also into the beta zone.

I will then do sacch rest(s), 71-72 and mash out.

 

[Adr_0]

You sure you mash at 56-57ºC ? Seems awfully low to me. Or is this just the first stage of a step mash? Consensus seems to be that 65-66ºC is a happy spot for a single infusion mash.

I don't underlet, just fill the mash tun with about half my strike water, then dump in the grain and stir. I add more water while stirring until I reach my mash temperature. Never have an issue with dough balls.
I run off and batch sparge via a manifold. Always get over 90% extraction efficiency.

Yeah that's fine - I guess people might do it for different reasons, the primary one, apparently, being to reduce dough balls. It can be hard work on a big, stiff mash if you dough in at 66-67.

And I guess the point of the post is that it isn't exactly a cure-all: you either still need to do some break-up, or dough in around 35°C. Perhaps it just slightly reduces the amount of dough balls?

 

[Liam_snorkel]

I also mash in for a protein rest (55) for 10mins and move on from there, but I don't underlet and as a result my strike water only needs to be about 1-2deg warmer than target (because my mash tun is preheated by the strike water). I don't get dough balls from this technique. From what I understand gelatinisation temp is 58-62 or thereabouts, and entering the mash tun rather slowly - could it be that due to you strike water being in gelatinisation range, it is causing the dough balls by gelatinising the contact surface of some areas of more floury grain and trapping air? Why not stir the grain bed as you introduce the water?

 

[rude]

So you cant break up the dough balls manually because you do LODO ?

If thats right maybe a motorised rake arm in the mash tun so no o2 gets in there

You Installed a new sparge distribution manifold or is this one of those ?

 

[Adr_0]

I also mash in for a protein rest (55) for 10mins and move on from there, but I don't underlet and as a result my strike water only needs to be about 1-2deg warmer than target (because my mash tun is preheated by the strike water). I don't get dough balls from this technique. From what I understand gelatinisation temp is 58-62 or thereabouts, and entering the mash tun rather slowly - could it be that due to you strike water being in gelatinisation range, it is causing the dough balls by gelatinising the contact surface of some areas of more floury grain and trapping air? Why not stir the grain bed as you introduce the water?

Yeah I think you're spot on - last two were sitting at 57-58 after dough in, so Strike water was 62-64 and likely had a temperature a little to high in spots.

So you cant break up the dough balls manually because you do LODO ?

If thats right maybe a motorised rake arm in the mash tun so no o2 gets in there

You Installed a new sparge distribution manifold or is this one of those ?

Don't stir because of LODO. I think my particular solution is to lower the strike temp. I can rip 12-15lpm through the mash, so can get that temp up quickly.

But it's interesting anyway - no arguing with gelatinisation temp, underletting apparently doesn't help that much, and strike temp is far more significant.

 

[klangers]

I'd recommend a cold mash in.

Then, if you're really super-duper keen, you can build a mechamasher which is what's used industrially.

This is an auger inside a pipe which mixes the incoming grist with strike water, and the mixed slurry flows into the mash tun. This'll get your mash all nicely hydrated and mixed with no contact with air. Very much overkill on a home brew scale, and with 1/2" lines I doubt the slurry could flow very well. I shall plant the seed though.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I've never considered purging grain with co2.
My method in an esky is to have 2.5l per grain of water in the esky first which pre warms the esky. Regardless of starting temp, then somewhat gently, slowly spill in the grain while gently stirring it. Never had a dough ball ever that way. As for hot side oxygenation I'm more inclined to believe its a myth but that's just me...

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Uh, I also have to think out loud and agree that you still get dough at cold temps. To split hairs it is dough at colder temps and Gel at hotter etc. Not that this helps though. -_-
2c...

 

[MHB]

Dough balls are in my experience mostly down to the crush, and how fast the underlet happens.
A coarser crack and a slower underlet and you usually wont have a problem.

if the grist at the top is well extracted and lower down isn't, I would suspect that the flow through the grain bed isn't going all the way down, but is heading off to the sides and going around the grain in the middle/bottom of the bed. Pretty common problem with trying to recirculate through a bag rather than a malt pipe.
Mark

 

[Adr_0]

Dough balls are in my experience mostly down to the crush, and how fast the underlet happens.
A coarser crack and a slower underlet and you usually wont have a problem.

if the grist at the top is well extracted and lower down isn't, I would suspect that the flow through the grain bed isn't going all the way down, but is heading off to the sides and going around the grain in the middle/bottom of the bed. Pretty common problem with trying to recirculate through a bag rather than a malt pipe.
Mark

Yeah interesting point Mark, I suspect you are correct. I use a Marga, at its widest setting. I produce a fair amount of flour, though husks are still in fairly good nick and there is a good amount of broken endosperm.

I would say a lot of flour has promoted the dough ball formation.

I do use a bag, but also in a flat/square cooler and sitting on a false bottom. My first thought was channelling - down the middle and to the side, where the draw-off is - but these dough balls could have been anywhere in the bottom third.

Incidentally with under-letting the flow is up, so the bottom section will see the highest temperature which probably doesn't help.

I'm not sure how much adjustment I have on the Marga, as it's already as wide as it goes. I can definitely flow in slower, but will also go for a cooler Strike to properly hydrate the malt.

Thanks for all the tips everyone!

 

[droid]

I cold mash overnight and can't think of a reason to stop, no dough balls and better efficiency and maybe it's my imagination but a stronger protein break or hot break? .... More crap left in the cone at the base of the kettle as a result

 

[Liam_snorkel]

I use a Marga, at its widest setting. I produce a fair amount of flour, though husks are still in fairly good nick and there is a good amount of broken endosperm.

I would say a lot of flour has promoted the dough ball formation.

sounds like your culprit. The amount of flour I get reduced significantly when I switched from a marga to a millmaster (and again when I switched to fluted rollers). It might be to do with the 3rd roller on the marga..

 

[Adr_0]

sounds like your culprit. The amount of flour I get reduced significantly when I switched from a marga to a millmaster (and again when I switched to fluted rollers). It might be to do with the 3rd roller on the marga..

Yeah, these things are made to produce flour afterall...

Flutes sound hardcore. Getting very Peter Gabriel...

 

[MHB]

With mills its the diameter of the rollers that makes the most difference, there are other variables but size first.
Its called "Nip Angle Theory" if you want to do some reading, but basically the bigger the rollers the better the crush. Lots of really good science if you feel like geeking out.

Both rollers being driven rather than 1 driven 1 idling. Roller speed. Surface texture to avoid slippage... all play a role, but bigger wheels are king.
Mark

 

[droid]

^thats in the vault...wer're lucky to have people like you Mark, thanks mate

 

[Liam_snorkel]

getting off topic - but check this puppy out regarding large diameter rollers:

http://www.braufox.com.au/index.php/en-AU/shop-accessories/product/10-matt-mill-70mm/lang-en-AU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiSUFFSqivg

 

[Adr_0]

With mills its the diameter of the rollers that makes the most difference, there are other variables but size first.
Its called "Nip Angle Theory" if you want to do some reading, but basically the bigger the rollers the better the crush. Lots of really good science if you feel like geeking out.

Both rollers being driven rather than 1 driven 1 idling. Roller speed. Surface texture to avoid slippage... all play a role, but bigger wheels are king.
Mark

I feel like an analogy can be drawn with angle of a plane landing: too steep and you get too many little pieces.

 

[Jack of all biers]

getting off topic - but check this puppy out regarding large diameter rollers:

http://www.braufox.com.au/index.php/en-AU/shop-accessories/product/10-matt-mill-70mm/lang-en-AU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiSUFFSqivg

That's funny, whilst I was formulating my post in German Grain Mill you posted this video of the exact mill I have. Spooky. She's a beauty though.