Tweak my starter process?

[kahlerisms]

hi Guys

Just looking for a bit of feedback on my starter process - it works fine, I get active, fast ferments but I think my process could be a bit more streamlined. Consider the following example of my process with a smack pack of 1056

1) Starting with a dry flask, add 200g of DME.
2) Add water to the 2L mark
3) boil for 15 minutes.
4) Crash chill in ice to 19 degrees
5) Add Wyeast pack which has been swelling in the brew fridge at 19 degrees for 3+ hours
6) add sterilised stirbar and some loose fitting foil over the top
7) Throw on stirplate at 19degrees on a moderate spin for 24-48 hours. I don't really do this by a certain time period. Sometimes it'll sit on there up to 72 hours. I take it off when I notice there's no more visible activity
8) Throw my flask in the stubby fridge at around 3C.
9) 12-24 hours later carefully decant liquid off of slurry
10) Back in the brew fridge which is now set at 18 degrees and has my cube in it
11) A few hours later once everything is 18, I pitch my yeast into the bottom of the fermenter and throw my wort on top.


Now the bit I think I could do with some feedback on is I guess step 7-10. It seems not only inefficient to me to go cold -> warm -> cold warm but also something I should probably avoid doing to my yeast.

Would a better option for step 8 to be to just let the yeast settle out naturally over a couple of days?

 

[bruce86]

i baisically do what you do. works fine for me

 

[Truman42]

I do this.

1. At 10 mins after start of boil drain off 2 litres of wort and put into my flask and crash chill to around 22C.

2. Add my smacked yeast pack and stir bar and put on the stir plate. (I switch of the stir plate when I go to bed that night.)

3. When Ive finished brewing and drained the wort into my fermenter via the chiller its usually around 25-30C still so I put it in the fermentation fridge set at around 22C.

4. The next morning pour the entire flask of starter into the fermenter whilst straining to catch the stir bar.

Saves me having to chill the starter and pour off the beer. Saves me having to buy DME to make my starter and im pitching my starter when its rip roaring and the yeast are partying hard.

 

[Phoney]

A couple of questions; 1) If you're using an entire pack of wyeast per batch of beer (which I presume is ~23L) - why bother creating a starter and not just pitch the swollen packet directly into your wort? It even says on the packet that it's ready to go for a 5 gallon batch.
2) Why don't you throw the stir bar in between step 2 & 3? Boiling it for 15 mins is the best & easiest way of sterilising it.


In steps 10 & 11 - If you leave your cube at room temperature, decant your liquid off the slurry and leave it out for less than 1 hour, both your wort and your yeast will be roughly the same room temperature. Then you can add one to the other, stick it in the brew fridge, set to 18C and forget. According to the wyeast website; it doesn't matter if you pitch your yeast at warm (>30C) temp and then cool down to ferment temp. During the 24h lag phase you wont produce fusels or off flavours.

 

[Tilt]

...whilst straining to catch the stir bar.

I use a magnet on the outside of my flask to keep the stir bar in the flask when decanting. Helps prevent any nasty strains

 

[kahlerisms]

A couple of questions; 1) If you're using an entire pack of wyeast per batch of beer (which I presume is ~23L) - why bother creating a starter and not just pitch the swollen packet directly into your wort? It even says on the packet that it's ready to go for a 5 gallon batch.
2) Why don't you throw the stir bar in between step 2 & 3? Boiling it for 15 mins is the best & easiest way of sterilising it.

In steps 10 & 11 - If you leave your cube at room temperature, decant your liquid off the slurry and leave it out for less than 1 hour, both your wort and your yeast will be roughly the same room temperature. Then you can add one to the other, stick it in the brew fridge, set to 18C and forget. According to the wyeast website; it doesn't matter if you pitch your yeast at warm (>30C) temp and then cool down to ferment temp. During the 24h lag phase you wont produce fusels or off flavours.

I can't figure out how to edit quotes without destroying them on this new forum software so I'll respond below:

1) Because my recipes tell me to pitch with two smack packs despite what the smack pack says. I'm fermenting ~21L batches (I no chill in a cube so I'm limited to that volume). I understand it's always beneficial to create a starter for less lag time and faster, cleaner fermentation. Do you really reckon I'm wasting my time? I also tend to buy ingredients in bulk because I live east and my homebrew shop (G&G) is west and we have four hours a week when I'm not at work and they're open. Because of this I buy in bulk and ingredients my sit in my brewery for a few months before I get around to it. I like to make a starter to make sure everything's happy.

2) ONly learnt this week that the stirbars are teflon and can cope with that kind of heat. Probably will start doing so from here on.

3) Interesting that you say I won't get funky flavours and smells in the first 24 hours. That's usually where I'm most particular about my temp control (as you can see even going so far as to make sure my yeast and my wort are the same temp so I don't shock my little yeasty friends).


Interesting to get alternative opinions. This is exactly what I was after, thanks. Sounds like I'm not really doing anything wrong, I just might be going to more effort than I had to (which was my suspicion, though not to this extent).

 

[Phoney]

1) Because my recipes tell me to pitch with two smack packs despite what the smack pack says. I'm fermenting ~21L batches (I no chill in a cube so I'm limited to that volume). I understand it's always beneficial to create a starter for less lag time and faster, cleaner fermentation. Do you really reckon I'm wasting my time? I also tend to buy ingredients in bulk because I live east and my homebrew shop (G&G) is west and we have four hours a week when I'm not at work and they're open. Because of this I buy in bulk and ingredients my sit in my brewery for a few months before I get around to it. I like to make a starter to make sure everything's happy.

2) ONly learnt this week that the stirbars are teflon and can cope with that kind of heat. Probably will start doing so from here on.

3) Interesting that you say I won't get funky flavours and smells in the first 24 hours. That's usually where I'm most particular about my temp control (as you can see even going so far as to make sure my yeast and my wort are the same temp so I don't shock my little yeasty friends).


Interesting to get alternative opinions. This is exactly what I was after, thanks. Sounds like I'm not really doing anything wrong, I just might be going to more effort than I had to (which was my suspicion, though not to this extent).

1) It's not that I think you're wasting your time, but your money. Maybe I'm just a tight arse (I am a homebrewer), but I expect to get 4 or 5 brews out of each packet of wyeast. When I open a pack, I split the contents off into 4 or 5 sterile vials, label them and stick them in the fridge for future. Then pour an equally small amount that's left in the pack into a starter and build it up from there for whatever im brewing in the near future.

As for whether you need two packs, it depends on what you're brewing: From Wyeast FAQ:

Do I need to make a starter for an Activator?

No. The Activator is designed to deliver professional pitch rates (6 million cells/ ml.) when directly added to 5 gallons of wort. ( <1.060 at 70 degrees). However, if a package is slow to swell, suspected of being mishandled, or if the date is approaching the six month shelf life it is a good idea to build the culture up with a starter. High gravity or low temperature fermentations require higher pitch rates. This can be achieved with inoculating with additional packages or making a starter.

In any case, you can use a pitch rate calculator: http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrate.cfm

3) Well, this from whitelabs:

"The lag phase can be carried out at a higher temperature than the rest of fermentation because very little
flavor compounds are produced. Ethanol production is also very limited, therefore ester formation is not a
concern. Some brewers begin the lag phase for ales at 72-750F, and complete the fermentation at 680F.
This can be done with success for lagers too, with starting the lag phase at 72-750F and lowering the
fermentation temperature to 50-550F."

And this from wyeast

Lag Phase
The lag phase is the time during which the yeast become acclimatized to the wort and prepare to reproduce and consume massive amounts of sugar. As with all phases in the yeast life cycle, nothing is clear-cut. Not all of the yeast undergo the exact same process at the same time but generalizations are possible.
In this phase, oxygen is extremely important. Oxygen is used by yeast for synthesis of sterols and unsaturated fatty acids that are necessary growth factors. Without oxygen, these lipids can’t be biosynthesized and growth will be very limited. The sterols and fatty acids produced are also very important in the structure of the cell membrane and the ability of the yeast to respond to external and internal stresses. Adequate oxygen in the wort when the yeast is pitched is essential to a successful fermentation and long-term health of the culture.
During the lag phase, yeast also take in amino acids, peptides, other proteins, and various nutrients. Internal cellular energy reserves (glycogen) fuel the initial yeast activity until the membrane becomes permeable to the wort sugars.

 

[sponge]

It's always good practice to make a starter, to ensure you have active and healthy yeast upon pitching into the full volume of wort.

Even better is using the wort from the brew to make the starter (grab ~2L at the end of the boil) so then you can throw the whole starter in without worrying about dilution/flavour contributions from the starter since it's all the same wort.

 

[kahlerisms]

The wort from the boil bit isn't an option to me at the moment. My beer might sit in cubes for 2-3 weeks until I get around to the starter or have brew fridge capacity. It's actually one of the things I like about no-chill. Not having fermenter room doesn't stop me from doing a brew and keeping it in a cube for a while.

 

[Truman42]

The wort from the boil bit isn't an option to me at the moment. My beer might sit in cubes for 2-3 weeks until I get around to the starter or have brew fridge capacity. It's actually one of the things I like about no-chill. Not having fermenter room doesn't stop me from doing a brew and keeping it in a cube for a while.

Then take out 2 litres of wort and freeze it. When your ready to make your starter, thaw it out pour into your flask and boil it for 10 minutes.

The good thing about making starters with your wort is you can pitch at high krausen, instead of having to wait until its stopped and you've chilled it to allow the yeast to drop so you can pour of the beer.

 

[sponge]

Yea that's understandable. Lately I've been trying to get a couple of cubes up that I can reuse the yeast across them with, then brew one beer to be used as the first beer for the said yeast and take some of the runnings from it to build a starter and pitch 48 hours later. Once fermented, I reuse the slurry for the next cube etc.

But that all depends on organisation and fermenting fridge availability.. Otherwise your original method is what I do when I have not organised my brewing too well.

 

[kahlerisms]

Yea that's understandable. Lately I've been trying to get a couple of cubes up that I can reuse the yeast across them with, then brew one beer to be used as the first beer for the said yeast and take some of the runnings from it to build a starter and pitch 48 hours later. Once fermented, I reuse the slurry for the next cube etc.

But that all depends on organisation and fermenting fridge availability.. Otherwise your original method is what I do when I have not organised my brewing too well.

You got a fancy arse conical or something that you can harvest yeast at the 48 hour mark from an active fermentation?

 

[Bada Bing Brewery]

Yea that's understandable. Lately I've been trying to get a couple of cubes up that I can reuse the yeast across them with, then brew one beer to be used as the first beer for the said yeast and take some of the runnings from it to build a starter and pitch 48 hours later. Once fermented, I reuse the slurry for the next cube etc.

But that all depends on organisation and fermenting fridge availability.. Otherwise your original method is what I do when I have not organised my brewing too well.

I just fermented 2 kosch's using 1 starter (a split from wyeast pack). Got starter going using cooled wort. Pitched starter into 1 cube and aerated. 24 hrs later when yeasties were cranking, I dropped half that batch in an empty cube. Then dropped the half the unfermented cube wort into original fermenting cube and other half in other. Sounds confusing (there is a german name for it) but worked a treat.
Cheers
BBB

 

[sponge]

I just fermented 2 kosch's using 1 starter (a split from wyeast pack). Got starter going using cooled wort. Pitched starter into 1 cube and aerated. 24 hrs later when yeasties were cranking, I dropped half that batch in an empty cube. Then dropped the half the unfermented cube wort into original fermenting cube and other half in other. Sounds confusing (there is a german name for it) but worked a treat.
Cheers
BBB

That's actually a pretty good idea. Means healthy yeast the entire way through without too much hassle. Would make fermenting a whole lot in a short space of time without worrying about individual starts quite possible.

You got a fancy arse conical or something that you can harvest yeast at the 48 hour mark from an active fermentation?

Sorry I meant to say that I make a starter from the leftover wort in the kettle after filling a cube, then 48 hours later, pitch that starter onto the (now) cooled cube. From there, I will have a number of cubes ready (or brew inbetween) so that once the first cube is finished fermenting, I can use the yeast from that brew to pitch into the next cube.

Hopefully that clarifies things a little...

 

[brad81]

I use a magnet on the outside of my flask to keep the stir bar in the flask when decanting. Helps prevent any nasty strains

I used a sanitised metal kebab skewer. I like your idea though!!

 

[KaiTroester]

One less step for you: No need to sanitized the stir bar, simply boil it with the starter. That also helps your boil to be less "pulsating" since it provides more nucleation sites for the boil.

On a related note, NEVER add a stir bar to boiling or still hot wort. Since a flask is very smooth, there are very little nucleation sites and the wort actually super heats That means it will be hotter than 100 C. When you now add the stir bar you introduce nucleation sites and get very vigorous boil immediately. I did this once when I forgot to add the stir bar. I shot hot wort 3 m across the kitchen. That could have hurt someone badly.

Otherwise it looks sound.

I second the idea that using more than 1 pack is a waste if you are making a starter. It takes about 70g DME to grow 100 B cells on a stir plate. That should be less than $1 (not sure how much DME sells for in Australia).

Kai

 

[Truman42]

On a related note, NEVER add a stir bar to boiling or still hot wort. Since a flask is very smooth, there are very little nucleation sites and the wort actually super heats That means it will be hotter than 100 C. When you now add the stir bar you introduce nucleation sites and get very vigorous boil immediately. I did this once when I forgot to add the stir bar. I shot hot wort 3 m across the kitchen. That could have hurt someone badly.

i did this once and got burnt on the arm by boiling hot water shooting out of the flask.