Tripel Karmeleit Clone

[scottc1178]

Hey guys,

I was hunting for a good clone of this beer (cos it is awesome), couldn't find one on AHB, so I gave this one a go on the weekend. It is an american recipe that I converted to metric measurements. It was my second ever all grain brew... and despite a few monumental fark ups, ie having to quickly add extra strike water, and adjust temps, blocking my boiler's tap with free floating orange peel and thus having to use a sterilised jug to bucket out the wort.... it seems to be coming along quite nicely (no infection, fingers crossed). it ended up around the 1070 mark, and after 24 hours the airlock was going bat **** crazy, and the wort tastes awesome so far.

I also made my own candi sugar (in place of the clear white syruo), cos it is way cheaper and not too difficult, and omitted the licorice root, cos f*cked if I can find it anywhere, and the writer of the recipe reckons it needs a month and a half in the keg before the licorice flavour comes through.... no way it's gonna last that long in my keg.

also was a little short on Hallertau so I subbed in a small amount of saaz.

interested in anyones thoughts...

Yeast: Wyeast 1214
Yeast Starter: none
Batch Size (Gallons): 21 litre
Original Gravity: 1070
Final Gravity: ?
IBU: 6
Boiling Time (Minutes): 90
Color: Pale gold

5.5 kg pilsner/lager malt
1 kg wheat
0.5kg oats
0.5kg bottle of clear white syrup in boil

30g Hallertau in boil
7g Hallertau at 15 min
15g licorice root at 15 min
45g fresh orange peel at 5 min
10g crushed corinader seed at end of boil

Mashed at 65 for 45 minutes and then raised to 71 for sparge.
Boiled for 90 minutes with 30g Hallertau. All other additions as indicated.

 

[NewtownClown]

I prefer Star Anise as a sub for Licorice root...
Now you have reminded me I was going to brew a Floreffe clone...

 

[tallie]

What's the alpha acid % on the Hallertau? I'm no expert on the style, but the IBUs look a bit low to me.

Cheers,
tallie

 

[pmastello]

Its funny you should post that recipe as I have just tapped my clone that was based on the same recipe.
Mine is
5 kg Pilsner
500 g Wheat
500 g Quick oats
1kg of raw sugar

17 IBU of Perle.

Wyeast 3787

I planned on a orange peel and Corriander addition, but I forgot.

For hops, I just did a bittering addition for 17 IBU. Brew like a monk does give an IBU of 17 of Tripel Karmeleit so I went with that. I chose Perle because i had some and hop choice was pretty irrelevant in this beer.

Wyeast 3787 because I couldn't get a hold of 1214. I pitched a big starter that I got from making a low gravity, hoppy patersbier I brewed immediately before. I pitched at 21, kept it there for 3 days then let it go to 25, where it stayed for 2 weeks.

After a filtering and carbonation, my verdict so far is - Time. This beer needs a bit of time to come together. Once I am happy with the carbonation, I'll move it to the back of my keezer and forget it for a few months. I'll schedule it to start drinking in April or May.

 

[scottc1178]

What's the alpha acid % on the Hallertau? I'm no expert on the style, but the IBUs look a bit low to me.

Cheers,
tallie

I think the AA was around 5.2% from memory, a couple of people also questioned the IBU in the forum where I found the recipe, so I wouldn't be too surprised if it's wrong.


here's the original discussion if ur interested:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/karmeliet-clone-226744/

later on he also talks about waiting until 2 or 3 days into primary to add the sugar syrup in order to ensure reaching a lower fg, but after discussion with my LHBS we decided the mild rewards aren't worth the risks of removing the fermenter lid, plus I'm lazy... so i added that at the end of the boil.

 

[scottc1178]

Wyeast 3787 because I couldn't get a hold of 1214. I pitched a big starter that I got from making a low gravity, hoppy patersbier I brewed immediately before. I pitched at 21, kept it there for 3 days then let it go to 25, where it stayed for 2 weeks.

yeah, I've currently got it sitting around 20 deg, but I noticed they were talking about fermenting at some pretty high temps ie mid 20's, which scares me a little... kinda goes against everything I've been told so far, but do you reckon mid 20's are a good idea for this style of beer?

I've just used one pack of wyeast 1214... hoping it doesnt stall...

 

[tallie]

later on he also talks about waiting until 2 or 3 days into primary to add the sugar syrup in order to ensure reaching a lower fg, but after discussion with my LHBS we decided the mild rewards aren't worth the risks of removing the fermenter lid, plus I'm lazy... so i added that at the end of the boil.

I've just used one pack of wyeast 1214... hoping it doesnt stall...

Conventional thinking suggests that unless you made a starter, you're probably underpitching. Combined with having all the simple sugar available to the yeast up front, you may run into attenuation problems. Just something to keep in mind for next time if it finishes higher than desired.

Cheers,
tallie

 

[pmastello]

yeah, I've currently got it sitting around 20 deg, but I noticed they were talking about fermenting at some pretty high temps ie mid 20's, which scares me a little... kinda goes against everything I've been told so far, but do you reckon mid 20's are a good idea for this style of beer?

I've just used one pack of wyeast 1214... hoping it doesnt stall...

Nah, keep it low. With your low pitching rate and High OG, I'd keep it down. You can ramp it later in the second week of fermentation to try and avoid it stalling. Most yeast flavour is produced in the first few days, so you should be ok.

Mine has a lot of yeast character, high in esters and a little bit of high alcohol and that was with 60 sec of pure O2 and adequate pitching. When I brew this again, I will pitch and ferment lower than what I did. Keeping yours low will make it a better beer I would think. But we are also taking about different strains, so who knows.

 

[scottc1178]

ok 3 days in now, and my frementing fridge REEKS of banana.... is this a result of me pitching too high?? or is this typical from this style of yeast / brew??

either way, I'm becoming a bit concerned for my beer's yumminess.

 

[hsb]

Haven't used 1214 specifically but banana smells sounds promising and definitely not something to be worried about at this stage. Take a hydrometer sample then drink it to put your mind at ease.

 

[tallie]

ok 3 days in now, and my frementing fridge REEKS of banana.... is this a result of me pitching too high?? or is this typical from this style of yeast / brew??

either way, I'm becoming a bit concerned for my beer's yumminess.

From the BJCP study guide, and backed up by the Yeast book:

High ester levels are a product of the yeast strain, high fermentation temperature, high gravity worts, the metabolism of fatty acids in the trub, low yeast pitching rate, and low wort aeration.

You've got at least a couple of those boxes ticked, including the yeast strain. Have you fermented with this yeast before? Without having a benchmark, it's difficult to guage if it's gone awry and by how much.

If you're really worried about attenuation and cleaning up by-products, there is the option of pitching more yeast. However, you would need to start it up and pitch it while actively fermenting, and even then, there's no guarantees that it'll do the job.

If I were you, I'd leave it, see how it turns out and chalk the whole thing up to experience.

Cheers,
tallie

 

[scottc1178]

whew!

thanks lads, I'm no longer pacing and panicing and hissy fit is now over, I'll recompose, dry my eyes, and have a beer!

cheers
Scott

 

[scottc1178]

ok, so the results are in on this.

I recommend this recipe. a lot. a ****** lot.

I force carbonated yesterday (after just under 2 months (incl fermeting time)), will be mildly hung over for work tomorrow as a result.

I only intended to have one or to schooners to sample it this afternoon, but here I am 5 or 6 schooners later, feeling like i've had about 10... it's just a bit too delicious.

if i had to do anything different next time, i would not omit the licorice root, but add a very small amount for a little more complexity.

 

[neonmeate]

After 14 years of meaning to get around to a Tripel Karmeliet clone I'm doing one - of sorts - now. I am using a bit less of the unmalted grains than in the recipe above, and 5 different unmalted grains! I found this "5 grain porridge" stuff at woolies with a mix of flaked oats, barley, triticale, rye and rice. Using cultured up de ranke yeast. and hops left over from my xx bitter clone (otherwise saaz would be in there for karmeliet). i also made it a bit more bitter cause i dont brew anything under 30IBUs as a matter of principle...

og 1080 30 ibu, 16L
4kg weyermann pils
600g "5 grain porridge"
300g white sugar
40g Hallertau 3%60'
20g brewers gold 4.5% 60'
20g ground coriander seed and 2g ground grains of paradise at flameout

yeast cultured from de ranke xx bitter and saison de dottignies (attenuative, fruity and phenolic stuff)

 

[lael]

Let us know how it goes - Karmeliet is my fave triple. Really should make one!

 

[neonmeate]

i will! to nail it i think i need the courage to carbonate high... easy to overdo it... and the question is: to aerate or not to aerate... i want esters but i dont want green apples

 

[lael]

I would bottle carbonate. Def go for 3.5 vols, but in champagne, or swing tops. I would imagine that Coopers would be ok, but have not gone that high in them. I have done swing tops that high (my 'cellar' is temp stable below 24C though ymmv).

 

[neonmeate]

ive certainly gone 3.5 (and way above that...!) in normal bottles without bombs. but yes i think my shed in summer may not be ideal for co2 absorption... will have to get that second fridge

 

[Adr_0]

Have you seen this page?
http://www.candisyrup.com/recipes.html

It is about four down. Does look to be a few adjuncts in there.

 

[mikk]

The candisyrup clone is decent, however think about using less oats as the mouthfeel is too thick. Also, the yeast gives great flavours/aromas, but will not attenuate even close to the FG they give. Try adding something more attenuative along with (or after) the given (wit) yeast.