Tips for a Stout

[mofox1]

I’m planning an AG stout, and want it to follow (or improve on) an extract recipe of mine.

Most importantly, I want to avoid the "ashy" taste some porters and stouts have (I tipped a whole “fresh wort” porter because it just tasted like cigarette butts). I don’t like this flavour character at all.

My usual recipe is based on a 1.7kg can of Coopers Australian Stout to which I add 1.5kg of wheat LME and usually ~0.5kg dark LME and/or brown sugar. I also do a hop “tea” using chinook or fuggles (well, whatever I've got) to add another 20 or 30 IBU. I haven’t been faithful to any one variety of yeast for this one… Usually S-04 or US-05.

It turns out quite dark with a full bodied flavour and nice immediate bite that doesn’t linger overly long or become astringent. Some caramel & coffee but not over powering. It's perhaps a bit drier than I'd like, so maybe this reconstruction could make it a bit sweeter.

In an attempt to replicate that, my AG stout is going to be something like:
50% TF Maris Otter
35% Wheat Malt
8% Roasted Barley
5% Cara Munich III
2% Chocolate Malt

Mash will be a single step ~67 (esky mash tun).

Hops will be something very simple to get 50 – 60 IBUs from a single 60min addition. Either Columbus or EKG.

I’ve got a WLP023 Burton Ale that wants to be used soon, so why not here.

Targeting an ABV of ~5.5 to 6.0%

So, a couple of questions:

• What causes the ‘ashy’ taste? Is it too much choc, or barley, or something else?
• Flaked barley, wheat or oats appears to be used quite a lot (but not always) for stouts. What is the purpose of these additions?
• How does the recipe look?, and
• What have I missed?

Cheers all.

Mick

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Ash can come from black patent malt. You only need a tiny bit of it to notice it.

Oats gives a creamy mouth feel.

 

[Midnight Brew]

In my opinion the Caramunich III wont bring alot to the table with all that roast. 10% Roasted malts is a good amount. Made two stouts with that percentage with the first being 5% chocolate 5% roast barley and the second was a little more sessionable 7% chocolate, 3% roast barley.

+1 for wheat in stouts, gives that nice lacing head.

 

[mofox1]

Ash can come from black patent malt. You only need a tiny bit of it to notice it.

Oats gives a creamy mouth feel.

Cool, no patent then. Or ever... (until proven otherwise).

Anything else to look out for?

I'll give the oats a go at some point, used them once in a partial, but now realise that whatever I was steeping/mashing with probably didn't have enough conversion power. Turned out okay though.

 

[coopsomulous]

Dont mash the dark roasted malts (i.e. roasted barley and chocolate malts). Add them to the mash tun at mash out or vorlauf as they only need rinsing/steeping as the sugars are already converted.

I learned this from a Gordon Strong book and it made the biggest improvement to my stouts.

 

[mofox1]

In my opinion the Caramunich III wont bring alot to the table with all that roast. 10% Roasted malts is a good amount. Made two stouts with that percentage with the first being 5% chocolate 5% roast barley and the second was a little more sessionable 7% chocolate, 3% roast barley.

+1 for wheat in stouts, gives that nice lacing head.

More crystal, or don't bother?

Most of the recipes I've seen so far have more RB than choc, what does the reverse ratio do?

And yes, I love wheat.

 

[mje1980]

From memory, murphys has more choc than roasted barley. It is less intense in roast character and very smooth. I like it better than the other Irish stout. I'd better go grab one now that reminds me.

EDIT ok maybe I'm wrong. It does seem to have chocolate malt in it, but a small amount.

 

[Adr_0]

Dont mash the dark roasted malts (i.e. roasted barley and chocolate malts). Add them to the mash tun at mash out or vorlauf as they only need rinsing/steeping as the sugars are already converted.

I learned this from a Gordon Strong book and it made the biggest improvement to my stouts.

What sort of improvement? And do you lose that robustness?

I would have been hesitant to do this for mash pH reasons (too high without dark malts). And the last thing you want to do for a stout is add calcium sulphate.

I guess if there a fair bit of caramel the mash pH would not be too far off?

 

[manticle]

The concern with dark malts is often that they may drive pH too lo which is why chalk is often added (ineffective). Adding roast at the end combats that. Just add CaCl2 (no sulphate).

To OP - no black patent and the late roast addition will head you in the direction you want. Also oats and/or lactose. Maybe consider balancing the choc and roast barley a bit more.

 

[pedleyr]

I have a stout cubed that has black patent in it... Loosely based on something manticle posted actually.

Never tried one with black patent, it smelled delicious going into the cube, I'll be disappointed if it tastes like ash.

 

[Midnight Brew]

More crystal, or don't bother?

Most of the recipes I've seen so far have more RB than choc, what does the reverse ratio do?

And yes, I love wheat.

Leave it out in my opinion. Different ratios will have a different flavour effect basically. I've had an even ratio of both and was a good beer. I just tend to favour the chocolate malt a bit more. In saying that I will try adding the dark grains towards the end of the mash in the future, previously I had been steeping it separately in a spare pot.

 

[manticle]

Pedlyr - if balanced well and not in massive amounts, black patent won't be ashy.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

My Pillar of Stout uses about 100gm of black malt.
Helps to smooth it out.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/recipe/302-pillar-of-stout/

 

[Adr_0]

The concern with dark malts is often that they may drive pH too lo which is why chalk is often added (ineffective). Adding roast at the end combats that. Just add CaCl2 (no sulphate).

To OP - no black patent and the late roast addition will head you in the direction you want. Also oats and/or lactose. Maybe consider balancing the choc and roast barley a bit more.

Sodium bicarbonate would be an option too if you were so inclined. I'm just thinking consistency, and also what breweries do. It is what works for you, but I'm always keen to properly understand the cause for something. Sorry.

Would low pH give a harshness that would not be there if the roast malts are added later, and is this what people perceive? Could the harshness - pH aside - be from chemistry, eg sulphate too high, carbonate too low?

 

[manticle]

Roast malts can contribute to astringency and I believe this to be pH related. Most water chemistry recommends removing carbonate so I'm never in favour of adding it back. Calcium carbonate needs to be dissolved into acidic solution to have much of an effect on pH. Not sure about baking soda but I try and keep my sodium levels minimum.
I cold steep my roast for porters and stouts and add with about 10 minutes left in the mash.
No idea what commercial breweries do but they can monitor and tweak pH much more precisely than I can.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Some of us older brewers steep the dark grains overnight and add to the kettle.

 

[vykuza]

I've had a lot of success with adding 5-10% Bairds Brown malt - it adds a really nice cocoa flavour, with some dryness that really balances a stout nicely.

If you didn't want anything too bitter, try 7% pale choc, 3% roast barley and 5% brown malt with the remainder a good base malt like maris otter.

 

[Danwood]

Dont mash the dark roasted malts (i.e. roasted barley and chocolate malts). Add them to the mash tun at mash out or vorlauf as they only need rinsing/steeping as the sugars are already converted.

I learned this from a Gordon Strong book and it made the biggest improvement to my stouts.[/quote

Good tip here.

I draw a portion (2L maybe) of the main mash wort after dough-in, then steep the dark malts and any crystals I'm using in that (just in a covered food grade bucket). The temp. starts at 68ish but soon falls as it's un-insulated.

I take it from the main mash just because it makes me feel happy inside knowing there will be a bit of diastatic power in there to convert anything that might need converting. I know the kilning and cool mash temp. negates this, but the heart wants what the heart wants.

Very smooth roastiness ensues with no astringency or ashiness

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

There is nothing to convert in xtals and darker malts.

You are better of steeping it in hot water over the same duration as your mash.

Taking mash water out early is going to lower your diastic power for the mash.

 

[mje1980]

How many ways to skin a cat?!