The No-chill Cube Informal Water Taste/smell Test

[trevc]

I'm not sure if this has been done before. My apologies if it has, but I couldn't locate any threads.

As discussed elsewhere on the board, I'm going to "no-chill" some filtered/boiling water to see if the cube itself adds any noticeable flavours/smells to the water. The cube being tested has only been used once before, and is absolutely clean and white. It's a 25L and was purchased at Anaconda. I'm not sure what material the cube is made of, but there's an arrow pointing to "10" on the bottom. It looks like HDPE, if I had to guess.

Here's my procedure and plan so far:

- sanitise a cube with diluted bleach solution as is part of my normal prep routine. Sit for aprox. 30-40 minutes, shaking every 5-10 minutes or so.
- wash cube with water many times, until there's no smell of bleach remaining
- shake/drip dry
- spray entire inner cube surface with diluted hydrogen peroxide/filtered water solution
- shake/drip dry until nothing remains

- boil filtered (brita) water in sanitised SS pot
- place a few litres of this boiling water in bottom of cube, cap, and leave until it returns to room temperature. The hot water will be in contact with the bottom of the cube for the duration.
- place a few litres of the same water in sanitised heavy glass container, cover with gladwrap

- compare flavour and smell of the cube sample, reference sample(non-boiled), and glass container sample
- I'll also have my wife do a blind tasting of each

The only part of this experiment that might decrease my accuracy is that I'm not filling the cube full, which would take much longer to cool. I will cover the cube with blankets to keep the heat in as long as possible.

Let me know what you guys think, any input is appreciated.

Cheers

 

[Maple]

I like your thinking Trevc. I would suggest that to make it more like-for-like in comparison, you would need similar volums of water and of air in both containers, or at least proportionately equivilant to negate any "flavours" absorbed by the water from the head space. do post up the results.

 

[trevc]

Based on how clean and sanitised the cube was, I'm hoping the head-space should make minimal difference. After the peroxide solution had completely drip-dried, there was barely any noticeable plastic/container type smell.

There's about 5L in the cube, and it's still quite warm 2 hours later. I believe it will at least give a good indication if any further testing is required. It should be closer to room temperature within a few hours for testing.

 

[trevc]

The cube continued to cool off fairly quickly. It got to 30C, and I carefully placed all samples in the sink (in the same mugs, covered) to equalise their temperatures. I ended up using 3 of the same (new) coffee mugs for sample storage. The mugs were washed with filtered water, and sanitised with diluted peroxide solution, then drip-dried. I was very careful not to do anything that could introduce new flavours or smells at any stage of my little experiment.

The results so far:

My Wife's input

She tasted all three, and wasn't told what any of them were or what they came from. I asked her which water tasted the best, or most pure. After much hesitation between the boiled non-cube sample and un-boiled sample, she choose the straight un-boiled Brita-filtered water. She commented that there was barely any perceptible difference between them, but mentioned the one tasted "slightly more metallic" (at this point she still doesn't know what they are). I can't believe she could tell the difference.

I then asked her which sample tasted the worst, and why. She choose the cube sample without hesitation, and stated that it tasted "like there was more stuff in it", or "tastes like bad tap water". I asked her to be more descriptive, and she added "it just tastes funny." The "bad tap water" comment was made during the first question and tasting.

My own observations

I can't really tell the difference between the boiled non-cube water, and reference brita sample. They're so close.

However, the cube sample tastes quite noticeably different. The best way I could describe it:
- Like water which came from a garden hose that's been in the sun, but not as rubbery... just a very artificial plastic chemical taste. Or...
- Like bottled water that has sat in a hot car for a long time. I believe this is the most accurate reference point, and one that most people know.
- It's noticeably stale and "plasitc-y" tasting.
- I would not want to drink it.

The smell was ok, it might have been slightly different, but not significantly. My wife didn't find any off smells in any of the samples.

I was pretty surprised by these results, and didn't expect the cube to impart any flavours in the water. I would encourage more people to test this for themselves, hopefully with a cube hot-packed full of boiling water. Mine only had the 5L or so, but I don't see how this could make much difference. The contact time with cube was much less than a normal "no-chill".

What do you guys think? I'd definitely like to see more testing done. Whatever ended up in the cube water, it's definitely not good. Please keep in mind I went in to this totally un-biased, and have no-chilled my first 3 AG batches. The beer tastes fine so far

 

[Brewtus]

It would be interesting if the newness mattered. Is it possible to do the same test on used cubes. Put cold ex kettle water in one and boiling kettle water in another, leave them overnight and see if there is a difference. I might even try it myself.

 

[trevc]

This test cube has been used for no-chill once. I remember which one it is because of a price tag I partially ripped off. I used it for Dr Smurtos JSGA clone. It was very thoroughly cleaned and sanitised before it's first no-chill too.

Please do some testing, I'd really like to see what sort of results other people get.

 

[buttersd70]

Interesting how much of a difference it made.....
but heres another thought: same test and parameters, but cool the water to 68C and put it in an esky to see if any plastic flavours leech into the mash :lol:
Now that might throw a spanner in the works for chillers and no-chillers alike! :lol:

 

[Tony]

Thats why we add malt and hops

Very interesting experiment and great to see the results you found to.

Having brewed a state champ beer No chill, i dont have any real problem with the taste. It was left in a blue K mart cube with 2 inches of air space in the cube for a month before fermenting too.

I have been using No chill rencetly a lot and notice no flavour impacts. Not saying its not there but i cant taste it under the beer.

I run every drop of my brewing water through 20 meters of garden hose and noone has ever coplained of a hose taste

But i can taste the hose if i drink it from the hose, but not from the HLT after filling............ explain that?

I cant!

cheers

 

[trevc]

How many beers did you have while waiting for the HLT to fill up?

 

[buttersd70]

..... i cant taste it under the beer.

this is the most important point. Final product is what really counts.

 

[drsmurto]

this is the most important point. Final product is what really counts.

I wonder if your liver/kidneys feel the same way

Sorry POMO, i just couldnt help myself. Someone has to play the devils advocate, even if the tongue is planting firmly in the cheek. :lol:

 

[buttersd70]

I wonder if your liver/kidneys feel the same way

Sorry POMO, i just couldnt help myself. Someone has to play the devils advocate, even if the tongue is planting firmly in the cheek. :lol:

I've stopped listening to my liver since I started brewing. We've had a permanant falling out. :lol:

 

[Tony]

How many beers did you have while waiting for the HLT to fill up?

not enough if im drinking from the HLT :unsure:

 

[matti]

Trevc.
I've got a 0.4 micron double cartridge pure water filtration system.
Most visitors can't tell what water I give them.
They cannot tell if its from the kettle the filter or straight from the tap.
Sometimes I cannot either but my partner can
I' am currently no chilling my latest lager.
Hopefully, if I remember this thread, once I am drinking it I'll tell if its is any good.
The cube will undoubtedly contribute some flavour impact but only when it is new,
prior a proper baptising of various chemicals and loads of boiling water.

Still think what you have is good validation.
Just don't let it get to you h34r:

 

[matti]

By the way. The case swap I had with local Male guys I brewed a lager in a fermenter that previously had a ginger beer in it.
It all come down to cleaning the liver from inside :beer:

 

[katzke]

This test cube has been used for no-chill once. I remember which one it is because of a price tag I partially ripped off. I used it for Dr Smurtos JSGA clone. It was very thoroughly cleaned and sanitised before it's first no-chill too.

Please do some testing, I'd really like to see what sort of results other people get.

I have a suggestion. Do the same thing with 2 cubes and one with untreated tap water and one with the Brita water. In my reading about treating water for brewing the Brita water is different. De-ionized or something. That could have an effect on how it picks up flavors. I would do it but do not have any cubes.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

When "breaking in" my new NC cube - I filled to the brim with very hot (70+) tap water - left it to cool over night and repeated this process till I couldn't taste plastic anymore (which I could from the first couple of fills) - Finally when I couldn't taste it anymore, it got filled with boiling water and left to cool overnight.

After that - I could no longer pick the difference between the cube water and cooled boiled water (blind triangle test). Not as thorough as the test that trevc did, but enough to satisfy me.

Marked difference between the tastes on the first couple of fills though

 

[geoffi]

I wonder if your liver/kidneys feel the same way

Sorry POMO, i just couldnt help myself. Someone has to play the devils advocate, even if the tongue is planting firmly in the cheek. :lol:

I've been doing NC exclusively for a couple of years now.

Just had a blood test for liver/kidney function.

Result? A1.

(And my beer tastes pretty good to, IMHO...)

 

[newguy]

Trev,

Nice experiment. Food for thought, that's for sure.

 

[drsmurto]

I've been doing NC exclusively for a couple of years now.

Just had a blood test for liver/kidney function.

Result? A1.

(And my beer tastes pretty good to, IMHO...)

Will you please stop baiting me with dodgy pseudo science....

a couple years isnt long, it takes decades for most cancers to appear......

Anyway, i did like the test Trevc. Maybe you need to do it again with a larger number of tasters. Am particularly interested to hear that your missus could taste a difference and not you. Are you a smoker? Does she have a bun in the oven? These are but a few factors that influence peoples tastes.

I am allowed to argue science on this thread