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Temp Rise For Lager In Secondary

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proudscum

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I am thinking of stepping my temperature up a couple of degrees for a lager i am doing once i rack after the primary fermention stage to hit my FG.Am using California lager yeast and primary temp of 15 Oc,was thinking of going up to maybe 17-18 to help the remaining yeast do its job.Is this a good idea or as with all my lagers continue at primary temp?

cheers SCum
 

QldKev

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I am thinking of stepping my temperature up a couple of degrees for a lager i am doing once i rack after the primary fermention stage to hit my FG.Am using California lager yeast and primary temp of 15 Oc,was thinking of going up to maybe 17-18 to help the remaining yeast do its job.Is this a good idea or as with all my lagers continue at primary temp?

cheers SCum

Some may not agree with me here, :eek:

Once the main ferment is over I always raise my beer by 2c for a day or two, and often then another 2c for another day, before crash chilling it. I do this for both lagers and ales. I find with both yeasts it help clean up any left overs a lot better.

QldKev
 

manticle

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I do similar Kev. Either rest ales at same or slightly higher temp towards the end before cold conditioning and push lagers (only do 1 or two a year) up to ale temps. Belgians I'll push to high end ale temps and even a touch more.

Helps hit FG, helps reduce fermentation byproducts and most fusel and ester production has already occurred as much as it's ever going to.
 

Wolfy

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In general, I'd suggest that pitching the correct amount of of healthy yeast would be a better way to help the yeast 'do their job' than relying on raising the temperature at the end of fermentation.
Having said that, I do tend to use a diacetyl rest for light clean lagers that have been fermented cold (10C or lower). But with most all other beers I just leave the yeast to do it's thing at the same temperature, however (perhaps unlike manticle and QldKev) I'm not usually in a rush so generally 'primary' ferment for 10-14 days at a minimum. If you wanted a quicker turn-around, increasing the yeasts metabolism by raising the temp is likely a useful thing to do.

In your situation, California lager yeast is not a lager yeast that should be used cold, so if it's fermented anywhere between 14-18degC it should still retain lager characteristics, hence what you have suggested is still well within the 'accepted' temperature range - so I can't imagine it would hurt at all - but still ensure that you pitch a good amount of yeast rather than relying only on higher temps for the yeast to complete their job.
 

QldKev

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I must be in a hurry with my average time in the fermenter is between 2 and 4 weeks. If you re-read my post I did mention "Once the main ferment is over", and I never suggested to rush primary the ferment at a higher temp. If you can ensure your yeast health and count (I'm not just talking a starter size)is perfect for the target wort, and also dissolved oxygen levels are perfect every time, then I agree you most likely wouldn't need to worry about it. But I'm not going to count my yeast cells, and measure the dissolved oxygen content for all my brews, so yes I do raise the temps in-case there are any unwanted flavors that could be cleaned up.

QldKev
 

manticle

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Not rushing here either.

Primary ferment = how long it takes to hit FG.

Then either leave one more week at ferment temps for most ales, increase for some (like Belgians), and increase for lagers just in case of the dreaded diacetyl.

Then lager for 1-4 weeks, beers style dependent.

From grain to brain for me is usually 5-6 weeks, again style dependent.
 

proudscum

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was out of interest more so than a time frame thing.
The yeast was only 11 days old from manufacture when i made the starter bit small at one litre but i managed to shatter my 2lt flask before autoclaving both for the starter process.Normal procedure for me is pop yeast then when active pour into flask ferment then if needed step up again.once high krausen has been reached CC till brew day.this is one or two days later,let starter come up from fridge temp then pitch.the yeast is always cooler than the wort by a few degrees as i believe it is better for the yeast temp to rise than fall at the start of the fermentation cycle.With this brew i went through the hassle of using a sterile filter and airstone.Fermentation had started strongly in less than 12 hours maybe less.wasnt going to check at 3am to see if it had kicked off.
 

Wolfy

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@manticle & QldKev, I did not intend to offend either of you, but was trying to think of a reason why you'd raise the temperature for every beer for an 'extended' period after fermentation was complete. Obviously the procedure produces results you like - which is more than enough reason- but what is the basis and reason for it?

If the rise in temperature is to help reduce diacetyl in a cold fermented lager, it's best to do that a little before the fermentation is finished (2 days or 2-3 gravity points according to the 'Yeast' book page 113). For warmer fermented ales, they suggest holding it for 2 days after reaching terminal gravity, but only raising the temperature if the fermentation is sluggish. They make it very clear that chilling the beer immediately when fermentation is complete is a mistake, however both of you routinely raise the temperature higher and hold it much longer, so I was attempting to reason why that might be.
 

manticle

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Well I'm upset regardless.

For lagers I'd start raising temp about 1016 and similar for belgians. For belgians, the theory is to push a little extra from the yeast without it going nuts. It's also to squeeze out the last couple of points so that you get the necessary dry finish.

For most ales, as mentioned, I just condition at the ferment temp unless it seems it have stalled (UK yeasts do that to me a bit), in which case I raise from 18 to about 20-22.
 

Wolfy

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... CC till brew day.this is one or two days later,let starter come up from fridge temp then pitch.the yeast is always cooler than the wort by a few degrees as i believe it is better for the yeast temp to rise than fall at the start of the fermentation cycle.
I'm not so sure of the assumptions you are making here, since changes in temperature - especially sudden ones - are not something that yeast can easily deal with and can lead to mutations and other undesirable effects.

Chilling the yeast from room/starter temp by putting it in the fridge is quite a large and quick change for the yeast, so if you are going to use it quickly and have no problem with it flocculating, I'd not put it in the fridge unless it was essential.

Then adding the cooler yeast into warmer wort is an even quicker change, since the small volume of cool starter will warm almost instantly once added to the larger volume of wort, so you're not really keeping the yeast temp lower at all. It would be better to lower the wort temperature so that it matches the yeast-starter temperature and then let the whole lot gradually raise in temperature over the first day or two of fermentation.

@manticle, come to GABS on Friday or Saturday and I'll get you a beer, that will unupset you, lots of weird beer on offer it seems.
 

proudscum

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Sage advise and noted.the pitch temp is always close to the starter temp or vice versa,maybe a couple of degrees either side.will try with the next one to let it floc out at room temp.the main reason for CC is to settle as much yeast out and not pour the whole starter in even thought most of the starters are made from saved and canned wort from a previous brew.

Thanks for the advise yeast master Wolfy.
 

Wolfy

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That advice comes more from the 'Yeast' book than from me - I used to always chill my starters to crash the yeast - but they were pretty clear about how quick and large temperature changes can upset the yeast.
 

manticle

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I make active starters. Have never chilled and decanted but then again I treat my starters like I treat my beer and make them from the same material.

Master Yeast - I'm currently trying to negotiate a ticket for Saturday. If I'm successful, you can un-upset me with weird beer.

Or should I say 'un-upset me you can. Yeast will find a way. Powerful it is, yes'.
 

proudscum

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may see both of you there at GABS
 

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