Sukumaran and Chan

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Funk then Funk1 said:
Yet the Indonesian government have a team that lobby and pressure foreign governments, "to alter the outcomes of a legal trial that follows the laws of said country", for their citizens who are on death row in other countries (even for drug offences)
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You are talking about the nanny in saudi?

That was done within some strange islamic pseudo-legal framework. Not saying it's right, or that they are not hypocrites. Just that there are differences in the relations between those two muslim nations than there are between Indonesia and non muslim nations. Messy stuff.
 
I wonder if in the end they regretted doing it or just being caught?
 
mckenry said:
Are you just making that **** up or did Koshi say this on the 'Good morning Sunrise Womans Day Show'? They are not one of our biggest trading partners. They arent even in the top 10. They're 12th, and our 11th largest export market. They make more from us than we do from them. They might be the worlds third biggest population at 250 million, but even New Zealand, with their tiny 4.4 million are worth more $ as a two way trading partner to us.
Killing off political relationships can be precarious, but with the backing of the civilised world, we hold the cards here. We are worth ~$10 billion income to them. They are worth about $6 billion to us.
I am not pro Tony, but I believe he has handled this well.
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You tell me if I made that **** up - they are the 3rd biggest population, one of our closest neighbours ( and arguably most important as the corridor through which people smuggling and terrorism needs to be halted), and are 12th out of over 100 trading partners ( I said one of, not the biggest). If you cant see the relationship is important then you have your head buried shoulder deep up you arse.
As I said, I dont agree with capital punishment however it is well known this country has it in place (the AFP knew it when they dobbed them in) and we have a right to oppose it as they have the right to implement it. However putting the plight of 2 drug smugglers higher on the list than International relations with a very important regional player is nothing more than stupidity and public grandstanding. Fact is Tony got a dose of the ***** because the Indos weren't threatened by him. He is a man who is used to getting his way through intimidation and now he has spat the dummy because the Indos stood firm.

If he is so ******* outraged at the violation of civil rights he should have recalled ambassadors from China, India, PNG, Saudi Arabia even the good ole US of A. Hell even Australia still lock up people with no charge for an indefinite amount of time for the crime of fleeing persecution and death.

Nup, hypocritical, ignorant dummy spitting is all it is.


Edit- I stand corrected on the population- they are the 4th biggest (USA the 3rd), however that doesnt change the crux of the argument ie they are kinda important.
 
Droopy Brew said:
You tell me if I made that **** up - they are the 3rd biggest population, one of our closest neighbours ( and arguably most important as the corridor through which people smuggling and terrorism needs to be halted), and are 12th out of over 100 trading partners ( I said one of, not the biggest). If you cant see the relationship is important then you have your head buried shoulder deep up you arse.
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Yep, you did.

Sure its an important relationship as far as being neighbours goes. Thats all. They need us more than we need them. Thats how important the relationship is.

I realise you said 'one of our biggest', that's why I said "They are not one of our biggest".

The top 10 make up ~430 billion worth of trade. Indonesian trade is only $16b which is $4b in their favour.
We can afford to lose them if it happens.

Every previous government has been 'outraged' including todays opposition. It just happened on Tonys watch. Labor, Greens, Palmer United, whoever was in power would be expected to do the same, whether you or I agree with it.
 
"The biggest criminals are in parliament."

I remember the old man saying that when I was a kid. :)
 
Much of this is about showing the Indonesian people that the Indonesian government is being tough on drugs. Apparently it's a popular policy over there.

The Filipino woman who was also going to be executed alongside these blokes, was given an eleventh hour reprieve. There was a lot of public sympathy for her over there leading up to the executions and a sceptic could suspect that that decision was made because it would be popular.
 
I actually felt sick when i woke up this morning. but definitely not as sick as chan and sukamaran. Honestly, they knew what they were doing. They knew the risks. It wasnt the first time they smuggled drugs through Bali-Australia. GOODRIDDANCE to the pair! May the news have something better on in the next few weeks.

But I do feel for their families.
 
Black Devil Dog said:
Much of this is about showing the Indonesian people that the Indonesian government is being tough on drugs. Apparently it's a popular policy over there.

The Filipino woman who was also going to be executed alongside these blokes, was given an eleventh hour reprieve. There was a lot of public sympathy for her over there leading up to the executions and a sceptic could suspect that that decision was made because it would be popular.
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And it wouldn't surprise me if her reprieve had a little to do with a raised middle finger to Abbott saying "we can make the choice as and when we choose as to whether they live or die".
 
No I didn't make anything up Macca- they are fact (aside from the mistake of 3rd vs 4th) how you interpret it is different but certainly not made up.

I think the figures are also skewed drastically by our mineral wealth. The Indos are our biggest consumer of wheat by a fair margin and are up there with some of our other agricultural products. While our GDP may not take a serious hit due to our mineral wealth, the agricultural sector will certainly suffer if sanctions are brought in. Our position of cooperation with Indo to reduce the influx of people smugglers, drug smugglers and terrorists is now weaker as well, its not all about economics.

This happened on Tony's watch but it was very much of his own making. In fact both sides- Australia and Indonesia have used these 2 blokes as pawns as a show of political strength. Typical diversionary tactic- when Tony's polls were plummeting it coincided nicely with the impending executions. So a media circus broke out fanned by this government to garner support because they were showing strength. Conversely the Indos were doing the same- a weak government trying to endear itself to the public by shows of strength. And the more the Australian government pushed , the more the Widodo grandstanded such as the military overkill with transportation to the island, the media scrum yesterday with the poor families, the refusal to allow a priest at the executions etc. All special treatment for the 2 Australians because it made Widodo look strong.

I think Abbott picked this as his show of strength and because he had a burning desire to say **** you to the Indos after he had to eat humble pie over the spying incident (which of course was not his fault but was found out under his watch). The more he pushed, the more the Indos pushed. Had this been handled like it should have been at the start, calmly and diplomatically, the pressure to do something like withdraw the ambassador ( Abbott backed himself into a corner) would have been considerably less. Chan and Sukkamaren would still be dead- nothing was going to change that, but our relations would not be up **** creek. I dare say we would also be on a stronger footing to persuade Indonesia to do away with the death penalty in the future.

The only politician to come out of this whole sorry saga with more respect is Julie Bishop.
 
mckenry said:
We can afford to lose them if it happens
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If 'loosing them' also implies withdrawing funding for schools and education so the next generation of Indo kids get nothing but the koran, sharia and wahhabisim hammered into their skulls I'd rather 'keep them'.
 
madpierre06 said:
And it wouldn't surprise me if her reprieve had a little to do with a raised middle finger to Abbott saying "we can make the choice as and when we choose as to whether they live or die".
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Yeah wouldn't surprise me either. Although I did hear on the radio that a drug king pin had come forward with evidence relation to her case.
 
madpierre06 said:
And it wouldn't surprise me if her reprieve had a little to do with a raised middle finger to Abbott saying "we can make the choice as and when we choose as to whether they live or die".
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That too.

Droopy Brew said:
Yeah wouldn't surprise me either. Although I did hear on the radio that a drug king pin had come forward with evidence relation to her case.
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I heard that also, but the sceptic in me takes a bit to convince that drug king pins are so benevolent.
 
The replies and postulating from both our Govt and Opposition, and Indo govt would have been carefully planned and scripted for months to show an appropriate reaction expected of either side. The reality is the politics of both our countries is far greater than just 2 bloke who did the wrong thing and got caught.

I have no doubt that there have been genuine and empathetic pleas from our govt and opposition but the end result was never in doubt and the Indo govt were never going to lose face. It would not matter if it was Abbott, Shorten, Rudd, Gillard, Howard etc.

What pisses me off are the "social commentators" and ********* like Peter Heliar, Koshie and the social media Rent a Crowd who think they have a right to interfere in world politics, and think that everything is so black and white.
 
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