Style Of The Week 18/4/07 - Classic American Pilsner

[Stuster]

A Classic American Pilsner would never have used adjunts such as rice or maize.These beers were made by new imigrant German brewers.I think what you are refering to are" modern style american Pilsners".Still good but not the same.The classic would be all grain and uses classic noble German hops.I brewed one here for The Royal Perth Beer show and got a Silver.Not bragging but I did some research into the style and the difference is noticable.

Neville,

There's some more info on why adjuncts were used by pre-prohibition brewers in this article and in this George Fix article. The links in the first post should give you more on that as well. I've seen a great number of references to the use of adjuncts in these lagers, including the BJCP styles which are written by brewers with some knowledge of their country's brewing history. If you have any info that suggests otherwise, I'd be interested.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Some back ground info taken from Classic Brewing Series ""Continential Pilsner"
Quote: As early as 1850, these new arrivals began brewing lager in Canada and the united states.Later waves of immigrants reinforced the trend, and in North America the terms "lager and'pilsner became almost synonymous.My Quote "this is the original start of the style hence my claim of change later on".
More supporting documentation"Quote" "This growth of popularity brought changes as Brewers ADAPTED the style to fit their local conditions and shifting popular taste.
My Quote "so there fore this new adapted style is not the original".
Then" Quote " The clean refreshing palate of a good Pilsner became so desirable that rich flavours were muted in order to emphasise this characteristic. Carbonation sometimes was increased slighty and ADJUNCTS such as corn and rice were introduced LATER in order to lighten the body.
My Quote"So the Original had no adjuncts but was adapted later.So is the stuff you brew to the modern style "Classic American Plisner"the original or a contempory adaptation?If you can provide a date on when the Classic anmerican Pilsner originated I would like to know.At this time it starts at 1850.Not the BJCP guidlines of 2007.
Neville
Gryphon Brewing
Perth

 

[Trent]

Looks like you have done a fair bit of research, Neville, and I commend you for that. You certainly seem to know your stuff on the said style, and there can be no faulting you for chasing it up that far back. I would love to try your version one day, if I ever get over to the left coast. I have tried a version made by Bigfridge, and it was sesnational, though I think it used corn/adjuncts. Quite interesting that your traditional version came second at the royal perth show, wheras Asher made one with corn/adjuncts and came first. If they are judging to the BJCP, yours must be an excellent beer to take second.
The BJCP is an excellent guide on beers, and a great place to start looking for a style, but isnt always perfect (as they admit themselves, by constantly revising). If we went back to the 1800's, a porter should be brwon and soured with bret, but most versions these days are black, and not sour. I think that the whole "CAP" style bases itself around the few years before and after prohibition, but it is really refreshing to see someone thinking outside the box, and posting their view on it all. Keep it up.
All the best
Trent

 

[Stuster]

Neville, one thing to note is that the name is Classic American Pilsner, not Original American Pilsner. I don't believe that it has been claimed to be the first style of pilsner brewed in the US. There were doubtless many different beers brewed by immigrants in different parts of the states, though exactly what was brewed seems unclear and was probably varied. Clearly, this is not the original pilsner style, as both Bohemian Pilsner and the German adaptation of the style had been brewed before this time. But while these historical facts (or otherwise) are interesting (to me at least), they really have no bearing on the matter at hand. These beers with adjuncts (mostly corn) were brewed widely in pre-prohibition America and are certainly not an invention of the BJCP. These beers are the origins of the CAP style, rather than those beers brewed in the mid-nineteenth century. The beers made in this style are appreciated by many brewers and drinkers now, as are the all-malt beers perhaps more closely styled on European pilsners. The links I posted also have a lot of info on the style's origins.

Edit: as Trent says, I'm sure your beer is great. And it does appear from the posts above that many good brewers enjoy the adjunct CAP as well. Whatever we call them, good beer is good beer. :super: :chug:

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Trent
Thanks mate it makes all that late night reading worth while.Yes I believe the prohabition (circa 1920) beers have adulterated the true Classic American pilsner in its true form.Given it was a 70 year period between the 1850s.I wonder what they call those Pilsners produced between 1850s-1920s?Non Classic American Pilsners.(now Im just stirring) Others do not agree but thats what makes brewing forums interesting.
BTW Ashers Beer is a great pilsner no doubt abet the use of adjuncts.He has tried my beer and said it tasted like his!The truth is in the choice of malts,and the way you treat them.Asher uses a different yeast and Im not sure on his choice of hops but I would drink his all day without complaint.I cant change the BJCP guidlines but I will keep brewing a "Classic American Pilsner ""my way".
Neville
Gryphon Brewing

 

[Thommo]

G'day Neville,

Just out of interest, what is the difference between your definition of a CAP and a traditional German Pilsner. Is it just that one is brewed in Germany and another brewed in the US. Not trying to be a smart arse (although upon first reading what I've typed it does sound like it...sorry) just interested to know. My understanding of the CAP style is pretty much in line with what others have posted, but then again, they're probably all responsible for enlightening me on the style in the first place.

I must also admit, it's not a style I have attempted to brew yet. I will be trying one in June when under the house gets cold enough.

Very interested to hear your thoughts.

Cheers,
Thommo.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Maybe just a case of the Americans trying to claim another beer as their own!Just cant seem to do their own styles back then at the begining .But have improved since then I must add.My Main point is ,there is or I cant find a point where "classic American Pilsner "Starts and the OLD Classic American made Pilsners ended.PLease put a date on this!My interpretation of Classic means something old, right?If it wasnt for the begining (as the first 1850s era american Pilsners were) how could there be an end with a Classic American Pilsner. RIPP OFF.Why not call it a New age American West coast Styled Pilsner.After all these guys ripped off BUD,didnt they.I might as well start brewing a Perth Pilsner and have it excepted as a Classic "NEW" style .BS.No I dont hate Americans I just dont believe the interpretation of the use of Classic American Pilsner when its not.. Luv the comments keep It up.But lets change the style name.Any ideas?
Neville
Gryphon Brewing

 

[marky_mark]

Well i guess it all depends upon when you define the style "Classic American Pilsner" - Most, including the BJCP, have defined it at a point when it was obviously most distinct from its continental counterparts, and that's I guess how styles work. Not everyone has to brew to style, and not everyone should, or else we would never produce any new styles of beer. But from a purely stylistic point of view I would say that CAPs are defined by the use of some adjunct, and in that way are distinct from their continental ancestors.

Gryphon, if you want to brew a CAP without adjuncts then good on ya, thats why we love brewing, for its freedom. But I'm just saying that I think the CAP, in order to be true to style and the traditional brewing methods employed at its most characteristic point in time, should include at least some portion of adjunct.

Cheers & Beers.

Mark

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Marky-Mark
Ok next time I will add 0.1% maize and I will be brewing to BJCP guidlines.But really thats not my point.
If you can make the beer that fits the style and "guidlines "without the extra stuff as originally done then thats the way to go.I dont believe you could tell that I didnt use maize.The old guys were masters of the craft pitty they are not around to see what has happened.No insults intended.Im open to new styles of beer but I think its been done before and just cloaked in a new name.
Neville

 

[razz]

I'm brewing a CAP on Friday and would like some advice on hops please. The grain bill is 75% weyerman pils malt and 25% flaked rice. I have saphire, saaz, n/brewer and spalt pellets and a few hallertau plugs. I will ferment with S-187 yeast. Any comments ?

 

[Ross]

Kegged this one last night, which is based fairly closely on an award winning recipe from the States - I just replaced Saaz with B saaz in a couple of places. Doesn't answer your question directly, but should give you a few ideas..

CAP
Classic American Pilsner
Type: All Grain
Date: 8/05/2007
Batch Size: 27.00 L
Brewer: Ross
Boil Size: 35.31 L
Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 87.0

Ingredients
Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.50 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 57.5 %
1.74 kg Maize, Flaked (Thomas Fawcett) (3.9 EBC) Grain 28.6 %
0.55 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 9.0 %
0.30 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3.9 EBC) Grain 4.9 %
22.00 gm NZ Saaz B [6.70%] (60 min) Hops 13.2 IBU
22.00 gm Cluster [6.60%] (60 min) Hops 13.0 IBU
42.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [2.60%] (60 min) Hops 9.0 IBU
14.00 gm Tettnang [4.10%] (10 min) Hops 1.9 IBU
14.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00%] (20 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
14.00 gm NZ Saaz B [6.70%] (20 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
28.00 gm Saaz [2.20%] (20 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
1.00 tsp Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 90.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs SafLager German Lager (DCL Yeast #S-189) Yeast-Lager

Beer Profile
Measured Original Gravity: 1.060 SG
Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 6.3 %
Bitterness: 37.0 IBU Calories: 565 cal/l
Est Color: 7.7 EBC Color: Color

 

[DJR]

Easy razz - I reckon bitter with Northern Brewer, finish off with Saphir and Saaz

:beerbang:

 

[razz]

Thanks boys, DJR you read my mind !

 

[SJW]

Looking at a few recipces and the IBU varies a lot. From what I understand the hops really stand out in this one so what sort of IBU's should I be looking to hit for my first effort? I know the recipe below has no flaked maise, that will be next at 25 or 30% Flaked Maise, but for this rice Pils should I be looking to hit 15 25 or 35 IBUS?

#56 Classic American Pils
American Light/Standard/Premium Lager


Type: All Grain
Date: 17/05/2010
Batch Size: 25.00 L
Brewer: Stephen Wright
Boil Size: 32.05 L Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 75 min Equipment: Keg
Taste Rating(out of 50): 0.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
4000.00 gm Pale Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.9 EBC) Grain 80.00 %
1000.00 gm Rice, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 20.00 %
25.00 gm Tettnang [4.10 %] (60 min) Hops 10.7 IBU
20.00 gm Tettnang [4.10 %] (15 min) Hops 4.3 IBU
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
11.00 gm PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
2 Pkgs SafLager German Lager (DCL Yeast #S-189) Yeast-Lager



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.046 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 0.000 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG Measured Final Gravity: 0.000 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.36 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.00 %
Bitterness: 15.0 IBU Calories: 0 cal/l
Est Color: 6.2 EBC Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Double Infusion, Light Body Total Grain Weight: 5000.00 gm
Sparge Water: 12.06 L Grain Temperature: 15.0 C
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 15.0 C
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Double Infusion, Light Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp
30 min Protein Rest Add 9.00 L of water at 59.8 C 52.0 C
30 min Saccrification Add 8.00 L of water at 75.6 C 62.0 C
30 min Saccrification Add 8.00 L of water at 95.6 C 72.0 C

 

[bconnery]

IBUs for the style according to the BJCP are 25-40. As your recipe is at the lower end of the SG for the style, 1044 is the starting point, I'd go around the lower end of the range for IBUs too probably. So 25-30....
All depends on taste of course...

 

[winkle]

I might as well put this ****** cold weather to good use and brew one of these (using 10% Briess yellow flaked corn) fermenting with W2001 or MJ M84x2 via a starter.

 

[Bribie G]

For an unbiased opinion on American beers pre-prohibition there's a bit of a "window" into their processes in the free online 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, search under "brewing".

They conclude that American beers at that time were served very clear, cool and lively but quite bland compared to transatlantic brews and contained up to 50% adjuncts :unsure: to make use of the malts that would have been considered quite unsuitable for brewing purposes in the Old World. So obviously referring there to the 6 row barley, that the German immigrants had struggled with.

I'm actually cranking one out for a comp, will use BB pale plus 30% Polenta dry weight boiled as "cooker mash", a straight infusion mash as they did in the USA at that time according to the Encyclopedia, and a Czech Lager yeast.
Noble hops to a tad over 20 IBU.

I've always used Polenta in Cream Ales, Pale Continental lagers etc, far prefer to get it from Geeta enterprises for $3.50 a kilo and do my own gelatinisation.

edit: as with many things BJCP I tend to think their view of the good old style beers is maybe a bit rose-coloured .. always the way I suppose "God Damn, they don't make them hog jowls like they did when Grandpappy was a whippersnapper, ah tells y'all, they wuz bigger, meatier and jowlier- it's all in the hog, ya see, when they started truckin them in from Minnesota that was the start of the slippery slide, now you need to talk to my uncle from Delaware....."....

 

[yankinoz]

Brooklyn Lager, which supposedly Coopers is going to brew, is advertised as pre-prohibition. Coors brews Batch 19 from what they say is a recipe dug out of their archives, but they also keep it secret. Both beers have enough colour and melanoidins that home brewers have speculated about decoctions, long boils and specialty malts. Really high proportions of adjuncts were mostly a post-prohibition development.

The style was never uniform. Almost every brewery bittered with Clusters, but the better ones imported aroma hops. Budweiser ads bragged about "Saazer" hops and the use of rice rather than corn. We know they kept their boils and fermentation times short, but in those days lagered long. Quite a few brewers made faux lagers with clean ale yeasts and cold fermentation, and marketed them as "beer," not cream ale.

If I were a hundred-twenty years old and nostalgic, I'd go with six-row and 15--20 percent corn, Cluster at -60 and a little Saaz late. A 90 minute boil at least. If you want to be authentic, forget caramel malts, which did not exist. Brown malt did exist and was popular with American brewers, but it would have coloured their pale beers too much. Try a little Munich. If authenticity is no concern, maybe try a few percent Gladfield toffee rather than a light crystal. Some ads in the day mentioned malty aromas.

 

[gap]

Have a read of this by Jeff Renner about American Pilsner.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/1298/SOzym00-Pilsner.pdf

Regards

Graeme

 

[yankinoz]

gap, thanks for the Renner link.

Re adjuncts, it is possible to brew all malt with six-row and a few did. An old recipe for Wisconsin's "Good Old Potosi" was all-malt, and others advertised as much in the 1910s and just after Prohibition. That's not to doubt Fix, Renner and co. on prevailing styles. The 1911 Brittanica article's "up to 50% adjuncts" probably represents an extreme or a rumour among British brewers.

Just saw Ross's recipe. Nice.