Stumbled On Cub Yeast Profile

[Bizier]

I threw down a brew last Saturday and messed up more than one thing... but recovered my wort at the end and only came in 2 points low. BUT none of that made up for the face that I had not at all planned on the fact that I simply did not have enough yeast in my house to do the job.

I had 50L of a very light APA, and only two remotely useful packs of yeast in the fridge; 11g S04, and 11g of W-34/70.
I have found S04 to be a diacetyl dispenser under 20 deg C, and I thought underpitching would be even worse. I am never going to pitch only 11g of lager yeast into 50L of beer.

I pitched half of each and decided to ferment at a temp that would not put the S04 to sleep and hopefully mitigate some of the lager funk, but allow the W-34/70 to clean up any diacetyl. I had the beer fermenting at 16 degrees for a few days and took a sample, and the yeast character was scarily close to that of Carlton Draught etc. It has subsided a little with extended fermenting, but it was amazingly close, even over the US hops.

If anyone wants to clone these brews for a mate or whatever, W-34/70 fermented warm seems the go.

Sorry that there was no real useful info.

 

[HoppingMad]

If anyone wants to clone these brews for a mate or whatever, W-34/70 fermented warm seems the go.

Interesting. A mate toured the Fosters brewery in Vic recently and said all their beers are fermented with lager yeast (re-used 10 times). He said they spoke to a staffer who said all their lager yeasts were fermented at between 12 and 16 degrees. So you could be correct there with your statement about warm ferment.

Whether or not the strain is actually a w-34/70 or close to it is anyone's guess. Foster's have their own yeast lab so whatever their yeast is it would be a highly modified version of a common variety one would think.

Hopper.

 

[Bizier]

Mmm I think I have 50L of visitor beer (VB).

I have to say that I am not particularly impressed, but definitely surprised.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Fosters use (on their most popular beers) a proprietary strain that is a lager strain designed to produce clean beers at higher temperatures. But also use a variety of other strains for different beers - something like 6 ish strains just for the major portfolio.

Is it similar to 34/70 ... maybe closer than you think. After the war, the European breweries were knackered and had lost many and in some cases all of their yeast strains... Fosters re-supplied a number of those breweries with pure yeast cultures.

So its entirely possible that those yeasts share some sort of commonality.

 

[Millet Man]

I agree - I once fermented a lager with W34/70 at 14-15C and it had a bit of VB character to it.

Cheers, Andrew.

 

[floppinab]

I'm pretty sure most of the CUB and other megalager breweries pitch at around 12 deg and ramp up to around 17 or so over the course of 3 or 4 days

 

[Bribie G]

I agree - I once fermented a lager with W34/70 at 14-15C and it had a bit of VB character to it.

Cheers, Andrew.

As I've posted before, in my quest for Bulimba Draught I've used - so far - W34/70, Californian Steam Beer, Mauribrew Lager and Swiss S-198. My best results so far have been with the W34/70 but I was looking for something that would do exactly what TB said, a clean beer at a higher temp. The W34/70 left a sulphur twang because I probably rushed it a bit. Next time I'll actually try it at 15 degrees and see what happens. In my k n bits days I used that yeast without temp control in the QLD winter and it turned out quite drinkable.

 

[brettprevans]

brib

- 34/70 is a great generic lager yeast. i recon your close with the CUB profile your talking about depending on how you use it. it will give a nice lager if fermented properly.
- s189 is awsome. ultra clean crisp lager profiles in my experiance. and tends to smooth out or strip any harshness from grain bills (ive used a lot of this in brown lagers)
- Cal Common another great yeast but wont give the CUB profiles.
- S23 is a bit boring but a hard worker.

 

[Kai]

Fosters use (on their most popular beers) a proprietary strain that is a lager strain designed to produce clean beers at higher temperatures.

Dare I say it... it wasn't designed very well, then.

 

[wessmith]

As I understand it, Fosters also use a continuous mechanical agitation system in their fermenters to aid a more expedient fermentation. Its all about high pressure (time) brewing, productivity etc etc. But you cant deny that they produce a very consistent and marketable product.

Wes

 

[Thirsty Boy]

As I understand it, Fosters also use a continuous mechanical agitation system in their fermenters to aid a more expedient fermentation. Its all about high pressure (time) brewing, productivity etc etc. But you cant deny that they produce a very consistent and marketable product.

Wes

Not at Abbotsford - perhaps at Yatala I don't know.

But yes - fermenter space is one of the big potential bottlenecks in our process and speedy fermentations are a priority.

Starting at somewhere in the 9-14 range depending on product, initially controlled then free rising up to close to ale temps... maintained at a defined maximum before chilling back at specified PG, diacetyl, acetlyaldehyde etc etc levels. Yeast cakes dropped and partially re-used, green beer centrifuged to storage. Blending of different same product storage vessels to achieve (nearly) absolute consistency of product sent to filtration.

Dare I say it... it wasn't designed very well, then.

Now now ... just because you don't find it pleasant... doesn't mean its not pretty clean. No appreciable esters in anything but VB (fruity), no D, no sulphur, no fatty acids, no phenols or fusels. It might be to some palates a displeasing overall taste, but it is a pretty damn clean, crisp and to the larger population, drinkable result.

Not the flavour profile I am looking for in my beers though... and I have just started to use Wyeast 2124 (same strain as 34/70) - so I will be making sure to keep things at genuine lager temps.

 

[Brewman_]

As I understand it, Fosters also use a continuous mechanical agitation system in their fermenters to aid a more expedient fermentation. Its all about high pressure (time) brewing, productivity etc etc. But you cant deny that they produce a very consistent and marketable product.

Wes

Hi Wes,
Does this kind of process relate to Home Brew Lagers, in that the fermentation may be improved / more efficient in time with some agitation during fermentation?

Just prior to reading this post I was adding some Hallertau finishing hops to a lager that has been fermenting for 8 days at 10 Deg.C with Urquell 2001 Wyeast. Prior to adding the finishing hops there was not much apparent activity in the air lock and the SG was 1019. I expect a FG of 1011. After removing the fermenter from the fridge and adding the hops and replacing it in the fridge - a fair bit af turbulence in the fermenter during this, now the fermenter is bubbling away quite vigorously.

Is this the same mechanism?

Regards, Fear_n_Loath

 

[wessmith]

Hi Wes,
Does this kind of process relate to Home Brew Lagers, in that the fermentation may be improved / more efficient in time with some agitation during fermentation?

Just prior to reading this post I was adding some Hallertau finishing hops to a lager that has been fermenting for 8 days at 10 Deg.C with Urquell 2001 Wyeast. Prior to adding the finishing hops there was not much apparent activity in the air lock and the SG was 1019. I expect a FG of 1011. After removing the fermenter from the fridge and adding the hops and replacing it in the fridge - a fair bit af turbulence in the fermenter during this, now the fermenter is bubbling away quite vigorously.

Is this the same mechanism?

Regards, Fear_n_Loath

Not quite Fear_n_Loath, in the commercial process you have fermenters that can stand 10 to 15mtrs or even more, high. The hydrostatic pressure at the bottom of the fermenter is considerable and by keeping the wort moving and the yeast in suspension, helps minimise the impact of that pressure. Certainly rousing the yeast as you did adding the finishing hops can be advantageous but the result will vary depending on the yeast strain.

TB, some years back I spoke to a retired CUB brewer (cant remember his name now) who was in his '90s and he told me about the development of the continuous agitation system which he pioneered back in the 1960-1970 period. Thats how I became aware of the process. Have not come across it anywhere else in my travels either.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Kai]

Now now ... just because you don't find it pleasant... doesn't mean its not pretty clean. No appreciable esters in anything but VB (fruity), no D, no sulphur, no fatty acids, no phenols or fusels. It might be to some palates a displeasing overall taste, but it is a pretty damn clean, crisp and to the larger population, drinkable result.

Not the flavour profile I am looking for in my beers though... and I have just started to use Wyeast 2124 (same strain as 34/70) - so I will be making sure to keep things at genuine lager temps.

Agreed, none of the big unwanted fermentation byproducts (though I'd disagree slightly with sulphur byproducts purely from a sensory perspective).

I nearly always do get a mousy character from the yeast which was the motivator behind my statement.

 

[tdh]

Oi Kaiser!

mousy as in mouse or mousse?

tdh

 

[Bribie G]

Agreed, none of the big unwanted fermentation byproducts (though I'd disagree slightly with sulphur byproducts purely from a sensory perspective).

I nearly always do get a mousy character from the yeast which was the motivator behind my statement.

Aha, at last, a fellow mouse taster Yes, on drinking a schooner of VB as my first beer of the day I do pick up a fleeting little twang up the back of the nose in the first couple of slurps that is like a mousecage. If you kept mice as a kid or knew people who had them you never forget the aroma. However I do get that with XXXX heavy as well - I'm on my way out with SWMBO for her weekly pokies session and in the interests of science I'll quaff a couple of VBs and report. I sort of feel it's a component of the base malt maybe? I guess Yatala and XXXX at Milton would both access their malts from the same Brisbane maltings? I think JW have one near the port.

 

[Bribie G]

Well that was an unproductive hour on the pokies <_<

Anyway I got in 2 schooners of VB and got that taste I would describe as mousey. Then I did a schooner of XXXX heavy and it was similar. I reckon it would have to be something in the malt. Off topic for this thread but I tell you what the hops in the XXXX really stand out when you have just had a VB. For the first beers of the day they went down nicely

 

[wessmith]

I guess Yatala and XXXX at Milton would both access their malts from the same Brisbane maltings? I think JW have one near the port.

As far as I know the CUB - sorry Fosters, malt contract is with Barrett Burston and the Lion Nathan contract with Joe White. There is usually no deviation from this. Barretts have a maltings in Toowoomba and Joe White in Brisbane and Tamworth as well as the new one under construction in Minto, Sydney. Not sure if the old Barretts plant in Thornleigh is still operating.

Wes

 

[Kai]

Oi Kaiser!

mousy as in mouse or mousse?

tdh

Mousy as in the rodent, not the dessert.

Oh, and I disagree that it's crisp too...

 

[Thirsty Boy]

mouse hmmm.

There is a back flavour that I am not fond of, that I have never been able to come up with a descriptor for. Next time I try one I will keep "mouse" in mind to see if that's it. What do you think - a fatty acid thing??

Wes is right - Fosters malt supplier is BB. They are actually building a 100,000 ton new maltings in Qld (Pinkenba near Bris airport) Half the output will be for CUB Yatala and half for export